Level Drain

[Chris Bowers]

People talk about level drain resistance, and level draining all the time.

I don't understand this.

I've never been level drained in nethack, as far as I know. Maybe it happened once or twice and then I ate a wraith corpse. Maybe it's a bigger deal in Slash 'em?

Anyway, level drain has never, ever been a threat to me in thousands of games and dozens of ascensions.

What gives?

[Jukka Lahtinen]

Post by Chris Bowers
I've never been level drained in nethack, as far as I know. Maybe it
happened once or twice and then I ate a wraith corpse. Maybe it's a

I don't recall ever been level-drained in Nethack from eating wraith
corpses; is that possible? In Nethack I got level drained from attacks

He got level drained, then ate a wraith corpse to recover the lost level.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Jukka Lahtinen

Post by Chris Bowers
I've never been level drained in nethack, as far as I know. Maybe it
happened once or twice and then I ate a wraith corpse. Maybe it's a

I don't recall ever been level-drained in Nethack from eating wraith
corpses; is that possible? In Nethack I got level drained from attacks

He got level drained, then ate a wraith corpse to recover the lost level.

Ah, now I see that I misread. - Thanks.

In this case I'd like to note that level drains can happen also
from vampire attacks and that wraith corpses are not guaranteed
to get created in the first place.

But a single drained level can always be immediately restored by
killing the wraith or any other monster. If a wraith corpse gets
generated that means you may even get another level.

Level drains in Nethack is a "problem" especially in graveyards
where you can suffer from many levels drained that cannot all be
recovered. In addition in graveyards the wraith corpse generation
is severely reduced, so you cannot rely on that. Quaffing blessed
full healing helps at least to some degree.

With all that said; it's still rarely an issue in Nethack.

Janis

[Yosemite Sam]

Post by Chris Bowers
People talk about level drain resistance, and level draining all the time.
I don't understand this.
I've never been level drained in nethack, as far as I know. Maybe it happened once or twice and then I ate a wraith corpse. Maybe it's a bigger deal in Slash 'em?
Anyway, level drain has never, ever been a threat to me in thousands of games and dozens of ascensions.
What gives?

There are guaranteed two vampire lords at the bottom of mine's end. This is the monster that gives me trouble. Say I'm making progress towards the next level and they get me, then all that progress is lost. It's best not to go to mine's end if nearing the next level. That could be thousands of experience points lost.

[Pat Rankin]

There are guaranteed two vampire lords at the bottom of mine's end. [...]

One of the three variations of Mines' End has two V class monsters.
That's a far cry from "two guaranteed vampire lords at Mines' End".

[ commenting about the initial post rather than this reply ]

Slash'EM has "wand of draining" and item using monsters are
happy to zap you with one. One of slash'em's most aggravating
features in my opinion, particularly since such wands start with
8-12 charges. The behavior of blessed potions of full healing was
undoubtedly added because of that type of wand. When nethack
added those potions the blessed effect was toned down because
it isn't as crucial there.

As far as nethack goes, level drain is more of a risk in 3.6.x and
to-be-3.7 than it was in 3.4.3 because MC 3 only provides 90%
protection to special touch attacks rather than the 98% that it used
to provide. Also MC 3 is harder to obtain; no role starts with it.

There's also vampire-shapeshifting. If you kill a wimpy vampire bat,
fog cloud, or wolf, instead of dying it could revert to a full-health
vampire or vampire lord. A nasty--or at least annoying--surprise if
you just killed the wimpier form via melee and end up face to face
with something much more dangerous. (Regular vampire bats,
fog clouds, and wolves can't do that, only vampires who have
changed their shape.)

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Pat Rankin
As far as nethack goes, level drain is more of a risk in 3.6.x and
to-be-3.7 than it was in 3.4.3 because MC 3 only provides 90%
protection to special touch attacks rather than the 98% that it used
to provide. Also MC 3 is harder to obtain; no role starts with it.

Here my question would be whether genocide had also been nerved
in NH36x+?

I ask this because just genociding class V solves all vampire
related issue in NH343 and Slashem. In Slashem it's even more
crucial since there's also some more dangerous species, fire
vampires, vampire mages, and star vampires, that I don't want
to encounter if avoidable.

Even if class-genocide would not be possible any more in NH36x+
it's still just two species you'd have to get rid of, I suppose.

Janis

[Chris Bowers]

Okay. I get it. I thought perhaps there was something unique about my play style that made it that I never get level drained (or if I do it's not an issue). It seems I never do mine's end until after sokoban.

My progression usually goes: gnometown --->sokoban---> up to end of dungeon before medusa---> Mine's end--->Bulk identify at stash--->Castle---> Return to stash and power up with wishes--->Valley of the Dead--->Quest --->Vlad's tower-->Orcus--->endgame

That progression seems to eliminate problems with level drain. I loathe mines end because of polytraps and usually only do it if I have some means of protection against it, or extra good cloaks/armor and I have an artifact weapon by then. Then I don't do valley of the dead or the quest until after the quest (quest nemesis is usually harder than the castle and requires wishes to gain protective qualities).

[Yosemite Sam]

Post by Pat Rankin

There are guaranteed two vampire lords at the bottom of mine's end. [...]

One of the three variations of Mines' End has two V class monsters.
That's a far cry from "two guaranteed vampire lords at Mines' End".

It doesn't mean it's not a factor. Do the three variations each arise with
1/3 probability? Also, they are always vampire bats that turn into vampire
lords.

[Yosemite Sam]

Post by Pat Rankin

There are guaranteed two vampire lords at the bottom of mine's end. [...]

One of the three variations of Mines' End has two V class monsters.
That's a far cry from "two guaranteed vampire lords at Mines' End".

It doesn't mean it's not a factor. Do the three variations each arise with
1/3 probability? Also, they are always vampire bats that turn into vampire
lords.

He informed me by mail that it is .30 .30 .40. Likelihood of getting mimic
mine's end =.

[Yosemite Sam]

Post by Pat Rankin

There are guaranteed two vampire lords at the bottom of mine's end. [...]

One of the three variations of Mines' End has two V class monsters.
That's a far cry from "two guaranteed vampire lords at Mines' End".

It doesn't mean it's not a factor. Do the three variations each arise with
1/3 probability? Also, they are always vampire bats that turn into vampire
lords.

Okay I got one of the bats to turn into a vampire. You were mostly right.