[evilhack] "You have a vague sense of guilt."

[Janis Papanagnou]

In EvilHack I entered a partly lit open level in the main dungeon
that was surrounded by water and had a lava area in the mid. This
level (dlvl: 11) has the portal to the Quest. I read a scroll of
light while in a dark part and got:

As you read the scroll, it disappears. A lit field surrounds you!
You have a vague sense of guilt. It gets angry!
You have a vague sense of guilt. It gets angry!

Some centauri on the level got angry - my race is also centaur -,
but why that message (and an alignment penalty) for lighting the
area? - Can someone explain what was wrong in this specific case?

(I then found and entered the quest home level; nothing seems to
be wrong there. But with only XL:13 and those two alignment hits
I may not be admitted to enter.)

BTW, I killed those centauri but got no "murderer" message for
killing formerly peaceful monsters of my own race, and my ESP was
still intact. - Is that penalty only for humans?

Janis

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Janis Papanagnou
In EvilHack I entered a partly lit open level in the main dungeon
that was surrounded by water and had a lava area in the mid. This
level (dlvl: 11) has the portal to the Quest. I read a scroll of
As you read the scroll, it disappears. A lit field surrounds you!
You have a vague sense of guilt. It gets angry!
You have a vague sense of guilt. It gets angry!
Some centauri on the level got angry - my race is also centaur -,
but why that message (and an alignment penalty) for lighting the
area? - Can someone explain what was wrong in this specific case?
(I then found and entered the quest home level; nothing seems to
be wrong there. But with only XL:13 and those two alignment hits
I may not be admitted to enter.)
BTW, I killed those centauri but got no "murderer" message for
killing formerly peaceful monsters of my own race, and my ESP was
still intact. - Is that penalty only for humans?

A penalty followed later! After finishing the nemesis I went back
to the quest leader. To my surprise he demanded to get the quest
artifact from me. Doh! I inspected the sources and it seems that
all effort was for nothing. I can hand it over or refuse. Handing
it over will give me some alignment and luck bonuses. Refusing to
do that will give me another huge alignment penalty and will upset
all the quest guards and the quest leader. In addition the quest
will not count as fulfilled until the quest leader gets killed.
There's some comment about the Bell of Opening getting cursed or
not depending on what you've done; but 'cursed' is set in quotes,
so I fear that this curse might not even allow me to complete the
game (but I don't know).

The quest artifact has a couple nice properties: "Gjallar",
TOOLED_HORN, SPFX_LUCK, SPFX_WARN, SPFX_HPHDAM, LEV_TELE.
I'm tempted to keep it and hope to survive...

Janis

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Janis Papanagnou

You have a vague sense of guilt. [alignment penalty]

A penalty followed later! After finishing the nemesis I went back
to the quest leader. To my surprise he demanded to get the quest
artifact from me. Doh! I inspected the sources and it seems that
all effort was for nothing. I can hand it over or refuse. Handing
it over will give me some alignment and luck bonuses. Refusing to
do that will give me another huge alignment penalty and will upset
all the quest guards and the quest leader. In addition the quest
will not count as fulfilled until the quest leader gets killed.
There's some comment about the Bell of Opening getting cursed or
not depending on what you've done; but 'cursed' is set in quotes,
so I fear that this curse might not even allow me to complete the
game (but I don't know).

I delayed the decision to continue the game, then got disconnected
from the public server (while I was still at the "forfeit" prompt).
After resuming the game the prompt was gone and the game assumed
that I decided that I want to keep the artifact and the whole gang
was angry at me. I killed some guards that were in my way and left
the level without killing the quest leader; this counts as quest
_not_ completed - as far as I understand -, not sure what part of
the game will get blocked and prevents my advance now. - Anyway,
the DTG (Disconnect Timer God) had spoken and I'll see where that
all leads to. Maybe I'll come back to kill the quest leader after
trying to fix my alignment first before getting the next huge -10
penalty.

Janis

[Pat Rankin]

In EvilHack [...]

It's based on 3.7, or at least includes a lot of features which will
be in 3.7 once that gets released. One of those features is that
peaceful monsters can be angered if they observe you attack
another peaceful monster.

Some centauri on the level got angry - my race is also centaur -,
but why that message (and an alignment penalty) for lighting the
area? - Can someone explain what was wrong in this specific case?

Scroll, wand, and spell of light are treated as an attack against
gremlins. If I had to guess, I'd say that you hit a peaceful one
with the light and those centaurs saw that happen. But that's
just a guess.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Pat Rankin

In EvilHack [...]

It's based on 3.7, or at least includes a lot of features which will
be in 3.7 once that gets released. One of those features is that
peaceful monsters can be angered if they observe you attack
another peaceful monster.

Some centauri on the level got angry - my race is also centaur -,
but why that message (and an alignment penalty) for lighting the
area? - Can someone explain what was wrong in this specific case?

Scroll, wand, and spell of light are treated as an attack against
gremlins. If I had to guess, I'd say that you hit a peaceful one
with the light and those centaurs saw that happen. But that's
just a guess.

That might be a good guess. I saw a message (later or other game)
that indicated that some monster got "hit" (or so) or annoyed by
a zap from a random wand of light. (That was in front of a shop;
can I anger even shopkeepers by that?)

The strange thing in the centaur game was that there was not any
of the angered centauri within the radius of the light source.

Janis

[Pat Rankin]

[...] I saw a message (later or other game)
that indicated that some monster got "hit" (or so) or annoyed by
a zap from a random wand of light. (That was in front of a shop;
can I anger even shopkeepers by that?)

Light is only an attack against gremlins (unless evilhack has
added that vulnerability to other monsters). I'm not sure offhand
whether shopkeepers care whether they notice you attacking
peacefuls; I suspect not.

The strange thing in the centaur game was that there was not any
of the angered centauri within the radius of the light source.

Infravision could account for that, but if they have it then your
character should too, so you should have seen a gremlin in the
dark. Hmm; unless it was around a corner or behind a boulder
so you couldn't directly see its spot but became lit when you
targeted a different spot near it.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Pat Rankin

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Some centauri on the level got angry - my race is also centaur -,
but why that message (and an alignment penalty) for lighting the
area? - Can someone explain what was wrong in this specific case?

Scroll, wand, and spell of light are treated as an attack against
gremlins. If I had to guess, I'd say that you hit a peaceful one
with the light and those centaurs saw that happen. But that's
just a guess.

My centaurian Valkyrie reached dlvl:20, and found her first attended
altar in the dungeon. (Minetown was just an orcish haunted ruin and
there were no other temples in main dungeon or branches.) Spent tons
of gold (30k) that I was lugging around for 7 points of protection.

This temple is dark though, and I am tempted to lighten that temple
with that co-aligned centaurian priest. Hope that priest won't also
get angry at me given my previous experiences with that unexpected
"lighting-attack"...

Janis

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Pat Rankin

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Some centauri on the level got angry - my race is also centaur -,
but why that message (and an alignment penalty) for lighting the
area? - Can someone explain what was wrong in this specific case?

Scroll, wand, and spell of light are treated as an attack against
gremlins. If I had to guess, I'd say that you hit a peaceful one
with the light and those centaurs saw that happen. But that's
just a guess.

My centaurian Valkyrie reached dlvl:20, and found her first attended
altar in the dungeon. (Minetown was just an orcish haunted ruin and
there were no other temples in main dungeon or branches.) Spent tons
of gold (30k) that I was lugging around for 7 points of protection.
This temple is dark though, and I am tempted to lighten that temple
with that co-aligned centaurian priest. Hope that priest won't also
get angry at me given my previous experiences with that unexpected
"lighting-attack"...

Okay, he's still peaceful, but did I blind him by reading that scroll
of light?

Status of the centaurian priestess of Odin (female, neutral):
Level 13 HP 57(57) AC -17, peaceful, blind.

That might indeed be considered an attack. And these "wild" centauri
from the other game (see above) might react differently and may have
got hostile. (Just speculating.)

Janis

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Janis Papanagnou
This temple is dark though, and I am tempted to lighten that temple
with that co-aligned centaurian priest. Hope that priest won't also
get angry at me given my previous experiences with that unexpected
"lighting-attack"...

Okay, he's still peaceful, but did I blind him by reading that scroll
of light?
Level 13 HP 57(57) AC -17, peaceful, blind.
That might indeed be considered an attack. And these "wild" centauri
from the other game (see above) might react differently and may have
got hostile. (Just speculating.)

To speculate further: If the priest was blind from the beginning, it would
not have been affected by the scroll of light. Therefore, it is to early
to conclude, whether lighting may or may not be considered as an attack
in Evilhack. - Stay careful and good luck! ;-)

BeAr

[Janis Papanagnou]

To speculate further: If the priest was blind from the beginning, [...]

I wasn't aware that this is possible.

Stay careful and good luck! ;-)

Thanks... :-) ...but it's too late. ;-)

Met my first basilisk; got stoning attacked from distance.
A bite from a lizard. Next stoning attack. Self-teleported
randomly, landed in the same room. Tried another teleport
(before taking the next bite from my lizard) but that was
wrong. Turned to stone. - The best EvilHack game thus far.

Janis

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

Post by Janis Papanagnou

To speculate further: If the priest was blind from the beginning, [...]

I wasn't aware that this is possible.

I don't know, if a priest can be created blind in EvilHack. But I meant
"from the beginning of your interaction with him". So, even if a priest
can not be created blind, it IMHO is /not/ save to deduce, that the
blindness you detected /has to be/ caused by the scroll of light you
read. And even if it was the cause, blinding him by making light /may/
carry just a /chance/ of angering him. From point of game mechanics it
might be even possible, that your earlier donation pre-mollified him.
(Something worth implementing, if it isn't already part of the code?)

[Escape basilisk stoning attack]

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Self-teleported randomly, landed in the same room.

Hm, that's /evil/. - The name of the game seems to be well-chosen. ;-)

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Tried another teleport (before taking the next bite from my lizard) but
that was wrong. Turned to stone. - The best EvilHack game thus far.

Sorry to hear this. My condolences!

Although I don't like excessively hard game mechanics, the episodes of
the EvilHack games you posted nearly make me try it out. Unfortunately,
I didn't even have time for a single /regular/ Nethack game since - hm -
September? <Sigh>

BeAr

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
[Escape basilisk stoning attack]

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Self-teleported randomly, landed in the same room.

Hm, that's /evil/. - The name of the game seems to be well-chosen. ;-)

Interestingly I have memories about my early Nethack days where I
experienced something similar with air elementals; three or four
self teleports took me just adjacent to that 'E' or too close to
escape these very fast hard damaging critters.

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Although I don't like excessively hard game mechanics, the episodes of
the EvilHack games you posted nearly make me try it out.

To be honest, I am missing the balance, and there are too many deadly
surprises (unexpected or non-derivable) for my taste.

OTOH it's quite quite challenging, and you can also look at all these
surprises as exploring (sort of) "a new game" from scratch. (But since
I'm pretty old [Real Life] exploring from scratch is not optimal; I'd
like some reliable logical or known base for the game mechanics.)

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Unfortunately,
I didn't even have time for a single /regular/ Nethack game since - hm -
September? <Sigh>

Temporarily interrupting and saving the game is still possible. ;-)

Janis

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

On Wed, 15 Mar 2023 19:06:09 +0100, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

[EvilHack]

Post by Janis Papanagnou
To be honest, I am missing the balance, and there are too many deadly
surprises (unexpected or non-derivable) for my taste.

I guess, even if I had the time to try it, I most likely would abandon
it after only a short while.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
OTOH it's quite quite challenging, and you can also look at all these
surprises as exploring (sort of) "a new game" from scratch. (But since
I'm pretty old [Real Life] exploring from scratch is not optimal; I'd
like some reliable logical or known base for the game mechanics.)

Logic and predictability (including plausible randomness) is important
for me, as well.

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Unfortunately,
I didn't even have time for a single /regular/ Nethack game since - hm -
September? <Sigh>

Temporarily interrupting and saving the game is still possible. ;-)

Yes, I tried this: Latest save file on this PC dates 2022-08-07. (One
of the Laptops should have a newer save or log file, but from another
character.) I don't even know, anymore, which role I might have been
playing. (Let alone, which stuff and levels I might have experienced.)

In the past, I kept written game notes. - There was lively discussion
around some tab-sheets for Nethack here in rgrn. (In the midst of the
1990's, IIRC.) I created my own special version, back then. But these
sheets also just help keeping a "relation" to a certain game for a
couple of weeks, at most.

Nowadays, I usually delete any save file older than a couple of days
and roll a new character. Helps, that I like the early "preparation"
part of the game the most... ;-)

BeAr

[Keith Simpson]

Casting light, or using a wand/scroll of light close to any monster has a chance of blinding them if they have eyes; if they are peaceful and were blinded, there's a chance they will become angry. This comes from SporkHack - the implementation in EvilHack is actually a bit more forgiving than the way it's setup in SporkHack.

Being stoned at a distance - that wasn't from the basilisk you encountered. Beholders have a stoning gaze attack (appear as a brown 'e' in-game). Best way to defend yourself from a beholder is to blind yourself.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Keith Simpson
Casting light, or using a wand/scroll of light close to any monster
has a chance of blinding them if they have eyes; if they are peaceful
and were blinded, there's a chance they will become angry. [...]

Good to know. Thanks.

Post by Keith Simpson
Being stoned at a distance - that wasn't from the basilisk you
encountered. Beholders have a stoning gaze attack (appear as a brown
'e' in-game). [...]

When posting I may have confused the monster names; thanks for
the clarification. The encounter was actually in a zoo and don't
actually know where that creature was, or how it looked like.
I just saw the attack message and tried to escape immediately.

Janis