no numpad

Post by Yosemite Sam
I haven't been playing for awhile because I don't have a numpad.
However, I've come up with this - I'm going to remap qweadzxc and
use them to move and s will probably be search. Any better ideas?

How about "learn to use 'hjkl' and 'yubn'"? The HJKL part is
pretty straightforward and YUBN are positioned diagonally
around H (approximately, assuming ordinary qwerty keyboard).
It won't take very long to not need that as a visual reminder
anymore.

To remap those commands to new keys, you don't just need
to assign movement commands to them (multiple instances
of each, for shift move, control move, and possibly meta/alt
move), you'll need to give the commands which use them now
new keystrokes (or always use their longer #abc form which
would be pretty tedious). You're already faced with that for
#loot and #jump, also the need to omit 'n' when entering a
count prefix, but the remap you envision would magnify such
changes by quite a bit.

I assume you're planning on running to-be-3.7. 3.6.x allows
changing keys for general commands but not for movement
commands (aside from a 'number_pad' setting that swaps
y/Y/^Y/M-y/M-Y and z/Z/^Z/M-z/M-Z--instead of switching
to digits for movement--to try to support qwertz keyboards).
That predated the BINDINGS config-file directive and has been
left it place even though the swap could be accomplished
with key bindings now.

Julian

2023-09-26 04:07:28 UTC

This was successful. I logged in on my other computer with the numpad and it was weird not using hjkl and friends. It's pretty good. I've got lights in my new keyboard and I can play in the dark.

nabru

2023-05-21 01:47:02 UTC

Post by Yosemite Sam
I haven't been playing for awhile because I don't have a numpad. However, I've come up with this - I'm going to remap qweadzxc and use them to move and s will probably be search. Any better ideas?

Just get used to yuhjklbn keys. I was without a numpad for a long time
and eventually you get the hang of doing things without it.

nabru

--
nabru | This PIZZA symbolizes
| MY COMPLETE EMOTIONAL RECOVERY!!
---------^-----------------------------------

RecRanger

2023-05-21 23:50:19 UTC

Post by nabru

I haven't been playing for awhile because I don't have a numpad. However, I've come up with this - I'm going to remap qweadzxc and use them to move and s will probably be search. Any better ideas?

Just get used to yuhjklbn keys. I was without a numpad for a long time
and eventually you get the hang of doing things without it.
nabru
--
nabru | This PIZZA symbolizes
| MY COMPLETE EMOTIONAL RECOVERY!!
---------^-----------------------------------

How does one kick then? Are you limited to <CTRL> k? What if you
are on a server where one cannot use <CTRL> commands? Is it
#kick, then?

--

CSS Dixieland

2023-05-22 00:20:06 UTC

Mister Ranger, as I have explained to Mister Yosemite about the lack of number pad in my Apple IPad tablet, it happens that it ALSO lacks Control key. Very limited is Apple IPad, in fact. It may be of high quality, but certainly it is very limited. Never again an Apple product for me, next time I shall 'downgrade' to a simpler device able to execute the Linux operating system that I love.

When playing Nethack, the action of kicking (a door, a box on the floor, or whatever) can be done, as You have mentioned, by preceding it with the hash symbol '#' and the whole or the unambiguous part of the word 'kick'.

That is what I do, for kicking and for many other actions without an exclusive keyboard key, when playing Nethack in my tablet. Not having Control key, I do not know of another method for performing such actions, and I have read very carefully the entire Nethack Manual and quite many pages of the Nethack Wiki, where I have also contributed texts.

Receive a Salute, Sir.

Janis Papanagnou

2023-05-22 04:09:40 UTC

Post by CSS Dixieland
Mister Ranger, as I have explained to Mister Yosemite about the lack
of number pad in my Apple IPad tablet, it happens that it ALSO lacks
Control key. [...]

I seem to recall that the usual control sequences that you find and
use on e.g. Linux systems (e.g. "Ctrl-C") are done using the 'Apple'
key ("Apple-C"). - Doesn't that 'Apple' key work with Nethack?

Janis

RecRanger

2023-05-22 06:07:11 UTC

Post by CSS Dixieland
Mister Ranger, as I have explained to Mister Yosemite about the lack
of number pad in my Apple IPad tablet, it happens that it ALSO lacks
Control key. [...]

The way I remember it is "To have CTRL is to have COMMAND." And
"To have ALTernatives is to have OPTIONs." SHIFT is SHIFT.

Is the 'Apple' key COMMAND?

--

Janis Papanagnou

2023-05-22 06:46:19 UTC

Post by RecRanger

Post by CSS Dixieland
Mister Ranger, as I have explained to Mister Yosemite about the lack
of number pad in my Apple IPad tablet, it happens that it ALSO lacks
Control key. [...]

I seem to recall that the usual control sequences that you find and
use on e.g. Linux systems (e.g. "Ctrl-C") are done using the 'Apple'
key ("Apple-C"). - Doesn't that 'Apple' key work with Nethack?

The way I remember it is "To have CTRL is to have COMMAND." And
"To have ALTernatives is to have OPTIONs." SHIFT is SHIFT.
Is the 'Apple' key COMMAND?

I suppose so; on the Apple systems I saw here previously there was no
text on that key but (as far as I recall) an apple depicted. - I just
had a look at a Mac Book we have here and there's all keys, Ctrl, Alt,
and Cmd, available. - But to initiate the Ctrl-Commands that we know
from other Unix systems - despite there IS a Ctrl key - you had to use
the 'Cmd' ("apple") key to trigger the Unix Ctrl-keys functionality.

Janis

Pat Rankin

2023-05-22 06:55:19 UTC

Post by RecRanger
How does one kick then? Are you limited to <CTRL> k?

^K is a movement command, to 'rush' in direction k (North).
The kick command is ^D. I think ^D for kicking was originally
chosen because Door was/is the most likely target of a kick.
(NetHack's Guidebook might even say as much.)

Post by RecRanger
What if you are on a server where one cannot use <CTRL> commands?

I don't see the connection. Servers where nethack runs accept
control characters. If your device won't send such, that is a
problem at your end.

Post by RecRanger
Is it #kick, then?

That will work in to-be-3.7 and possibly 3.6.x. It wouldn't work
in older versions. The extended form was only available for
commands that weren't preassigned to normal keys. Note
that ctrl+character is a normal key; alt+character isn't.

CSS Dixieland

2023-05-22 08:44:00 UTC

Mister Papanagnou and Mister Ranger are correct in regard to Apple Macintosh, but unfortunately, not in regard to Apple IPad. As it has been informed, this is a tablet with a virtual keyboard on a touch sensitive screen, and there is no Apple Command key on it. A tablet is a kind of small, flat micro computer, which has every component inside a cabinet of about the surface of a typical book, but much thinner than a book (or as thin as a book of few pages).

It is different from a portable micro computer (of the kinds known as lap top, note book and net book), different from a stationary micro computer (known as desk top), and also different from a mobile telephone or similar tiny devices.

Mister Rankin is also correct that the command for kicking using a control key is ^D (meaning 'door', although not only a door can be kicked), and that the said command can also be executed in Nethack versions 3.6.x to Nethack version 3.7.0 via #kick, but not in previous versions such as Nethack 3.4.3, in which the Alterne (or Alternative) key is used in stead. Or perhaps, depending on the operating system and platform, a double activation of the Escape key. Apple IPad has no such keys, therefore playing Nethack version 3.4.3 or older would be necessarily limited, if at all possible.

Nethack version 3.7.0, as Mister Rankin also indicates, has not been officially released yet by the Dev Team, but it is available for testing at the Hard Fought server. In my personal view version 3.7.0 is a good one, but as with versions 3.6.x it is lamentable when reaching a Mine Town that has been conquered by Orcs and has iron bars in all the gates. Such a possibility did not exist in Nethack version 3.4.3 or older, it was introduced as new in Nethack version 3.6.0.

Those gates can be broken using potions of acid, then the Orcs can be fought. Shop keepers, guards and priest are not present (assumedly they have been eliminated by the Orcs, or they have fled), therefore shops and temple are empty. Please, be kind to warn me if I may be trespassing on the acceptable limits of spoilers, I know Nethack in detail (as other Distinguished Members of this News Group also know it), I love the game, and I like talking of it.

Receive, Gentlemen, a Confederate Salute.

RecRanger

2023-05-22 19:43:13 UTC

Post by CSS Dixieland
Mister Papanagnou and Mister Ranger are correct in regard to Apple Macintosh, but unfortunately, not in regard to Apple IPad. As it has been informed, this is a tablet with a virtual keyboard on a touch sensitive screen, and there is no Apple Command key on it. A tablet is a kind of small, flat micro computer, which has every component inside a cabinet of about the surface of a typical book, but much thinner than a book (or as thin as a book of few pages).
It is different from a portable micro computer (of the kinds known as lap top, note book and net book), different from a stationary micro computer (known as desk top), and also different from a mobile telephone or similar tiny devices.
Mister Rankin is also correct that the command for kicking using a control key is ^D (meaning 'door', although not only a door can be kicked), and that the said command can also be executed in Nethack versions 3.6.x to Nethack version 3.7.0 via #kick, but not in previous versions such as Nethack 3.4.3, in which the Alterne (or Alternative) key is used in stead. Or perhaps, depending on the operating system and platform, a double activation of the Escape key. Apple IPad has no such keys, therefore playing Nethack version 3.4.3 or older would be necessarily limited, if at all possible.
Nethack version 3.7.0, as Mister Rankin also indicates, has not been officially released yet by the Dev Team, but it is available for testing at the Hard Fought server. In my personal view version 3.7.0 is a good one, but as with versions 3.6.x it is lamentable when reaching a Mine Town that has been conquered by Orcs and has iron bars in all the gates. Such a possibility did not exist in Nethack version 3.4.3 or older, it was introduced as new in Nethack version 3.6.0.
Those gates can be broken using potions of acid, then the Orcs can be fought. Shop keepers, guards and priest are not present (assumedly they have been eliminated by the Orcs, or they have fled), therefore shops and temple are empty. Please, be kind to warn me if I may be trespassing on the acceptable limits of spoilers, I know Nethack in detail (as other Distinguished Members of this News Group also know it), I love the game, and I like talking of it.
Receive, Gentlemen, a Confederate Salute.

I know of the iPad. Was not sure what the keyboard
layout was.

Point being to all of this, for me, was that 'k' is the kick
command. I always use 'k'. Just wanted to know how to
kick if using hjklyubn.

--

Yosemite Sam

2023-05-24 13:56:52 UTC

The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.

CSS Dixieland

2023-05-24 23:40:40 UTC

The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.

Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.

However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.

Kid Umby

2023-05-25 05:02:00 UTC

The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.

Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.

Have you tried applying the pick to not-the-iron-bars specifically? Digging into Orc Town is one of the easiest ways to enter, as opposed to what's apparently been tried - I'm not sure where fire became applicable unless there was a recent commit that lets us burn down solid rock.

RecRanger

2023-05-26 01:52:59 UTC

The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.

Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.

Also, force bolt or striking works on some, but not all, bars. Not sure about Orc
Town's.

--

CSS Dixieland

2023-05-26 01:53:00 UTC

The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.

Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.

No, Mister Umby, I have not tried digging. Mine Town is normally diggable, and I suppose that the Orc presence have not made it undiggable. Certainly a pick, a mattock, a wand of digging or another similar resource should be capable of making a hole. Not on the floor, because that would only transport me to a lower level of the Mines, but on the wall.

Your idea is EXCELLENT, Sir. Next time, whether I find Mine Town occupied by the fastidious Orcs or I find the normal Mine Town, I shall experiment with digging if I have some resource for doing it, or I shall return once I find a viable resource, unless I happen to be located in other parts of the dungeon far from the Mines. Thanks for the idea, Sir !

CSS Dixieland

2023-05-26 02:13:11 UTC

The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.

Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.

No, Mister Umby, I have not tried digging. Mine Town is normally diggable, and I suppose that the Orc presence have not made it undiggable. Certainly a pick, a mattock, a wand of digging or another similar resource should be capable of making a hole. Not on the floor, because that would only transport me to a lower level of the Mines, but on the wall.
Your idea is EXCELLENT, Sir. Next time, whether I find Mine Town occupied by the fastidious Orcs or I find the normal Mine Town, I shall experiment with digging if I have some resource for doing it, or I shall return once I find a viable resource, unless I happen to be located in other parts of the dungeon far from the Mines. Thanks for the idea, Sir !

Wand of force bolt or wand of strike... Thanks, Mister Ranger, that is also an idea to be experimented. I am not sure of the results, because the iron bars protecting the Orcs in occupied Mine Town may not have locks (otherwise a key, a pick lock tool, or even a credit card, might open the iron bars), and because the iron bars may be resistant to strikes, but it is certainly worth trying every available item that might even remotely be capable of passing the iron bars and fighting the damned Orcs that occupy Mine Town. I find this possibility of a Mine Town occupied by Orcs as a VERY UNHAPPY change in Nethack versions 3.6.x and 3.7.x, which did not exist in Nethack version 3.4.3 or in any previous versions. Other players may like the challenge posed by the change, but honestly, I do not like it at all. Nonetheless, I entirely recognise that the game has certainly improved in various other aspects (it would be long to list them), and it continues being, in my view, one of the two most interesting games that I know. For me, the only other game is Chess.

Janis Papanagnou

2023-05-26 03:52:58 UTC

[...] Nonetheless, I entirely recognise that the game has
certainly improved in various other aspects (it would be long to list
them), and it continues being, in my view, one of the two most
interesting games that I know. For me, the only other game is Chess.

Just curious; do you mean a computer based game of Chess or playing
against a human opponent on a physical board?

For board game enthusiast there's probably a couple more worthwhile
games. One I like a lot is Pandemic, a very difficult collaborative
game, of course playable with a larger player group than Chess or
Nethack, etc.

Janis, digressing

RecRanger

2023-05-26 07:57:39 UTC

The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.

Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.

No, Mister Umby, I have not tried digging. Mine Town is normally diggable, and I suppose that the Orc presence have not made it undiggable. Certainly a pick, a mattock, a wand of digging or another similar resource should be capable of making a hole. Not on the floor, because that would only transport me to a lower level of the Mines, but on the wall.
Your idea is EXCELLENT, Sir. Next time, whether I find Mine Town occupied by the fastidious Orcs or I find the normal Mine Town, I shall experiment with digging if I have some resource for doing it, or I shall return once I find a viable resource, unless I happen to be located in other parts of the dungeon far from the Mines. Thanks for the idea, Sir !

I have intense dislike of Orc Town. It sounds interesting, but is
bad for so, so many reasons. What is the worst how it ruins
the protection racket, and more specifically pacifists. You play
for an hour or two to carefully get down to Minetown with a
pacifist and discover orcs. #quit. Not fun.

--

Janis Papanagnou

2023-05-26 10:52:38 UTC

Post by RecRanger
I have intense dislike of Orc Town. It sounds interesting, but is
bad for so, so many reasons. What is the worst how it ruins
the protection racket, and more specifically pacifists. You play
for an hour or two to carefully get down to Minetown with a
pacifist and discover orcs. #quit. Not fun.

I very well understand the frustration, and specifically with the
Protection Racket. I presume two aspects for introduction of that
dungeon level variant; variance (a chance for non-reliability of
certain features) and a style (atmosphere) issue.

Personally I don't do the PR, so I am less concerned in this case.
But not having a single priest (where you can donate) in the whole
dungeon is also bad.

There's a couple things that are quite essential in the roguelikes;
one other thing is having a container for your items. There are
games where I find a lot of bags (even a lot of bags of holding),
but in other games not a single sack even until mid-game. Then not
even having the 50% Sokoban chance but a further reduction to 25%
(marker/bag) only is also frustrating. At least at some point you
might get a chance of manufacturing one (e.g. with polymorph) or
to get a better container (e.g. by upgrading, in some variants).

But lacking temples (or, to a lesser degree, an altar to get some
artifact) or other dungeon features is something that the game must
provide (or compensate), you cannot work around it.

Some games cat get quite arduous and stress the fun factor. That's
part of the game-variant design to sensibly balance availability
of options and necessities.

Janis

CSS Dixieland

2023-05-26 11:33:04 UTC

I very well understand the frustration, and specifically with the
Protection Racket. I presume two aspects for introduction of that
dungeon level variant; variance (a chance for non-reliability of
certain features) and a style (atmosphere) issue.
Personally I don't do the PR, so I am less concerned in this case.
But not having a single priest (where you can donate) in the whole
dungeon is also bad.
There's a couple things that are quite essential in the roguelikes;
one other thing is having a container for your items. There are
games where I find a lot of bags (even a lot of bags of holding),
but in other games not a single sack even until mid-game. Then not
even having the 50% Sokoban chance but a further reduction to 25%
(marker/bag) only is also frustrating. At least at some point you
might get a chance of manufacturing one (e.g. with polymorph) or
to get a better container (e.g. by upgrading, in some variants).
But lacking temples (or, to a lesser degree, an altar to get some
artifact) or other dungeon features is something that the game must
provide (or compensate), you cannot work around it.
Some games cat get quite arduous and stress the fun factor. That's
part of the game-variant design to sensibly balance availability
of options and necessities.
Janis

I have never played Pandemic, Mister Papanagnou. That game can accommodate up to four players and it may be interesting, but it has been released recently, in 2008, and that is too new for me to have studied its tactics in detail.

Regarding Chess, when I lived in Scandinavia I used to play in official tournaments, as well as in Chess clubs. There were more than forty clubs in Kjøbenhavn, the Capital of Denmark. Physical board, against human players. I obtained a rating close to 1700 Elo, which is considered that of a relatively strong club player, but below the level of Master.

In South America, however, I am more limited in my chances for playing face to face. I have participated in some local events, and in fact I am the Champion of the area where I am living, but that is not to say much because Chess is not popular here. Most people do not know even the moves of the pieces. They are aware that Chess exists, nothing else.

A minority plays Chess regularly, but very few players. There is only ONE club federated to FIDE, which gives a pretty good idea of the situation of Chess in this forgotten corner of the Planet. Therefore, I have to maintain my training by playing against remote opponents, via Internet. I do that in various Chess servers, in some more often than in others.

My name is the same as here, in all of them. If You wish to play with me, Sir, then I suggest Brain King or Little Golem.

Janis Papanagnou

2023-05-26 13:48:14 UTC

Post by CSS Dixieland
I have never played Pandemic, Mister Papanagnou. That game can
accommodate up to four players and it may be interesting, but it has
been released recently, in 2008, and that is too new for me to have
studied its tactics in detail.

It's actually older, I think the first release came out in the 1990's;
there have been various releases since then, but that may depend on
the country and publisher. The (older) version that I have we play with
more than 4 players, typically 5 or 6. Newer versions have extensions,
for newer mechanics, with more complexity, and for more players.

It's the difficulty and challenge that makes it interesting. Actually
quite similar to Nethack or other roguelikes in that respect; it's not
unusual that the group just dies, unable to manage the pandemic game-
situation.

Post by CSS Dixieland
[ details about chess clubs and countries snipped ]
My name is the same as here, in all of them. If You wish to play with
me, Sir, then I suggest Brain King or Little Golem.

You would have no fun playing Chess with me. :-) The epoch when I last
played Chess (and only occasionally, not in a club) was 4 decades ago.
I probably can compete well with the audience you described (and even
perform better - at least I know "the moves of the pieces" ;-), but not
with 1700 Elo. - My question was just out of curiosity, since computers
are ubiquitous, and I have no feeling or knowledge how folks (generally
or younger people) prefer playing chess nowadays.

Janis

RecRanger

2023-05-26 18:59:07 UTC

It's actually older, I think the first release came out in the 1990's;
there have been various releases since then, but that may depend on
the country and publisher. The (older) version that I have we play with
more than 4 players, typically 5 or 6. Newer versions have extensions,
for newer mechanics, with more complexity, and for more players.
It's the difficulty and challenge that makes it interesting. Actually
quite similar to Nethack or other roguelikes in that respect; it's not
unusual that the group just dies, unable to manage the pandemic game-
situation.

Post by CSS Dixieland
[ details about chess clubs and countries snipped ]
My name is the same as here, in all of them. If You wish to play with
me, Sir, then I suggest Brain King or Little Golem.

Oddly, chess is picking up in popularity exponentially, for some reason.
In particular, it has become a new obsession with today's youth.
One of the oldest games on Earth and it still grabs people in. Really
tells you something. What seems such a simplistic game is quite the
opposite when you begin to dissect it.

--

Janis Papanagnou

2023-05-26 19:22:29 UTC

[ Chess board game ]
Oddly, chess is picking up in popularity exponentially, for some reason.
In particular, it has become a new obsession with today's youth.

Interesting. Do you know whether they prefer it as board-game or per
computer screen?

I'm not a youngster, by far not, but not long ago myself as well was
looking for a chess board (but didn't find an adequate one); I wanted
a good board with a built-in computer. Chess is a game where I want a
haptic experience, I don't like playing it on a computer display.

One of the oldest games on Earth and it still grabs people in. Really
tells you something. What seems such a simplistic game is quite the
opposite when you begin to dissect it.

With respect to simplistic games, Go (the board game) is even simpler
concerning the rules and the figures, notwithstanding considered to be
extremely demanding; it had been compared to Chess in the past.

Janis

Yosemite Sam

2023-06-04 05:49:51 UTC

[ Chess board game ]
Oddly, chess is picking up in popularity exponentially, for some reason.
In particular, it has become a new obsession with today's youth.

Interesting. Do you know whether they prefer it as board-game or per
computer screen?
I'm not a youngster, by far not, but not long ago myself as well was
looking for a chess board (but didn't find an adequate one); I wanted
a good board with a built-in computer. Chess is a game where I want a
haptic experience, I don't like playing it on a computer display.

One of the oldest games on Earth and it still grabs people in. Really
tells you something. What seems such a simplistic game is quite the
opposite when you begin to dissect it.

Go is supposedly the oldest board game in existence.

You can't really advance too far in chess without picking up a chess book.

CSS Dixieland

2023-06-07 08:52:18 UTC

Post by Yosemite Sam

[ Chess board game ]
Oddly, chess is picking up in popularity exponentially, for some reason.
In particular, it has become a new obsession with today's youth.

Interesting. Do you know whether they prefer it as board-game or per
computer screen?
I'm not a youngster, by far not, but not long ago myself as well was
looking for a chess board (but didn't find an adequate one); I wanted
a good board with a built-in computer. Chess is a game where I want a
haptic experience, I don't like playing it on a computer display.

One of the oldest games on Earth and it still grabs people in. Really
tells you something. What seems such a simplistic game is quite the
opposite when you begin to dissect it.

Go is supposedly the oldest board game in existence.
You can't really advance too far in chess without picking up a chess book.

Yes, the Chinese game Weiqi or Weichi (called Go or Igo in Japan, Baduk or Patuk in Korea) is considered one of the oldest board games still in regular play. There is also the Egyptian Senet, the Mesopotamian Royal Game of Ur, the Scandinavian Hnefa Tafl, and a few others. Which one is the oldest is a matter of conjecture, because the rules as played today are not necessarily the same as the original rules, which in some cases are poorly known, or unknown.
The board of Weiqi is today of 19 x 19 lines, but the original one was of 17 x 17 lines and so is still played in Tibet.

Also European (International) Chess is different from its ancestors, the Indian Chaturanga, Persian Chatrang and Arab Shatranj. It changed since the late Middle Ages, with some rules for competition being modified even in recent years. And yes, becoming a Master in Chess (or in another complex game) means 'standing on the shoulders of giants' by studying the books written and the games played by Masters of yore. Fortunately, much of that is available in Internet.

Pray allow me to present a derivative of Nethack with which I am recently very engaged, for not saying 'addicted' to it:

Gnollhack, dungeon game with impressive graphics and sounds, based on Nethack version 3.6.2

A project begun in 2019 for Linux and other Unics operating systems, as well as Apple Macintosh and Microsoft Windows, and in 2023 ported to Google Android Linux and Apple IOS (IPad, IPhone) tablets and mobile telephones. Game play is similar to that of Nethack version 3.6.2, but Gnollhack includes a new race, the Gnoll, improves the intelligence of pets for following the hero and for not attacking peaceful creatures unless called to do so, and has some other interesting enhancements.

Besides those improvements to game play, an aspect in which Gnollhack stands out is in astounding images and sounds, thousands of them. High quality static and animated images plus sound effects, background music, speech (in English) with various characters such as hermits and shop keepers, and even whole songs in Elfish and English, interpreted by charming female Elves. Voices are not synthetic, they have been recorded by human locutors who interpret their characters credibly.

All that might seem like abusing computer or Internet resources, but it is not so much. In my tablet I have installed Gnollhack for Apple IPad: it needs less than 650 Megabytes of data transmission and storage space, and about 3 Gigabytes of Random Access Memory (or about 2 Gigabytes if disabling sounds), and most important of all: IT CAN BE PLAYED OFF-LINE, without Internet after installation.

Gnollhack is not one of those graphically heavy games that retrieve tons of high resolution dynamic images from a remote server during game play. At the opposite extreme, it is not the venerable Hack or Rogue of the 1980's that could be played from floppy disk. It is somewhere in between, and likely satisfactory for both kinds of players, the modern as well as the traditional one. I am myself of the traditional kind, and I have good news: MOST GRAPHICS CAN BE DISABLED, offering to the player the traditional interface where game characters and objects are represented by textual characters, in the old fashion. The characters can be in traditional ASCII (Code Page 437), or in Unicode UTF-8.

Sounds can be kept with disabled images, or they can also be disabled. The rich flexibility of options that exists in Nethack for game play is reproduced verbatim in Gnollhack, with extra options needed by the images and sounds of Gnollhack if enabled, such as screen refreshment or sound intensity.

I have discovered very few programming errors so far. The 'kick' short cut in stead of kicking moves the character Northwards (because the letter 'k' does that in the traditional Nethack interface when not using number pad), but kicking can be done by the extended command '# kick'). A little difficult is the presentation of the eight arrows for moving the hero or indicating direction (in substitution of the letters 'y u h j k l b n'). The arrows are presented on the touch-sensitive screen of the Apple IPad tablet as a background of the dungeon, visible through partial transparency and perfectly touchable for activating their function, but on a tablet this usually means keeping the arm too high, which after several hours of play is physically exhausting. Besides being dungeon player, one can also become a body-builder. The programmers were probably thinking of mobile telephones more than of tablets, when they decided to present the arrows like that. It would certainly be much easier in a telephone. Anyway, the screen of a tablet is touch-sensitive and can be used for movement or giving direction.

In sum I can affirm that, in my view, Gnollhack is the BEST Nethack derivative for Apple IPad tablets. There is also INethack, and a few other similar games available for IPad in Apple Store or in various other places, but by far Gnollhack superates all the others. Gnollhack is also very well documented:

Short presentation of Gnollhack in the Nethack Wiki:
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/GnollHack

Short presentation of Gnollhack for Android and IOS in Reddit, March 2023:
https://www.reddit.com/r/nethack/comments/11zeg1m/graphical_version_of_gnollhack_is_now_officially/

Gnollhack Wiki, with detailed explanations about many aspects of the game:
https://github.com/hyvanmielenpelit/GnollHack/wiki

Gnollhack Forum available for any one to read, and where members can write:
https://community.soundmindgames.com/forums/gnollhack.18/

Without any downloading, Gnollhack can be tested by playing the text characters interface. Without images or sounds, but the mechanics of the game and most of its options are, of course, the same:

Gnollhack playable in Gnollhack servers via SSH (not via Telnet):

ssh ***@eu-server.gnollhack.com (Europe)
ssh ***@au-server.gnollhack.com (Australia)
ssh ***@us-server.gnollhack.com (North America)

Gnollhack playable in Hardfought servers via SSH (not via Telnet):

ssh ***@eu.hardfought.org (Europe)
ssh ***@au.hardfought.org (Australia)
ssh ***@us.hardfought.org (North America)

Gnollhack is playable as part of the annual Junethack competition, via any of the servers above. So far Gnollhack is one of the LEAST played of all Nethack derivatives in Junethack, simply because it is the newest and the least known by most Nethack players. I am registered as one of the more than two hundred competitors in Junethack 2023, where I am slowly playing Gnollhack at the Hardfought server in Australia. I do not hope to be winner, just to finish my game by 30th June, whatever results.

Janis Papanagnou

2023-06-07 09:22:30 UTC

Post by CSS Dixieland
Pray allow me to present a derivative of Nethack with which
[ infos about Gnollhack ]

There's probably some more to say, but I restrict myself for
now to this emphasized one...

Post by CSS Dixieland
[...], and most important of all: IT
CAN BE PLAYED OFF-LINE, without Internet after installation.

Hadn't that been possible for most (if not all) roguelikes?

I recall to have had hack, moria, angband, larn, and nethack
sources on my computers, myself playing Nethack since 3.0.9
locally (switched to NAO (playing NH 3.4.3) only much later).
Then continued playing Slashem once again locally a couple of
years. Only recently again on a public server to try out some
variants.

I would be astonished if I couldn't play a roguelike locally
without Internet.

Janis

CSS Dixieland

2023-06-07 10:16:11 UTC

Post by CSS Dixieland
Pray allow me to present a derivative of Nethack with which
[ infos about Gnollhack ]

There's probably some more to say, but I restrict myself for
now to this emphasized one...

Post by CSS Dixieland
[...], and most important of all: IT
CAN BE PLAYED OFF-LINE, without Internet after installation.

Hadn't that been possible for most (if not all) roguelikes?
I recall to have had hack, moria, angband, larn, and nethack
sources on my computers, myself playing Nethack since 3.0.9
locally (switched to NAO (playing NH 3.4.3) only much later).
Then continued playing Slashem once again locally a couple of
years. Only recently again on a public server to try out some
variants.
I would be astonished if I couldn't play a roguelike locally
without Internet.
Janis

Correct, Mister Janis Papanagnou, as far as I know all dungeon games played by computer can be played off-line. They are inspired on the original Dungeons and Dragons, released by Wizards of the Coast in the 1970's, which was played using a physical board with pieces, cards, dice, and similar accoutrements. However, playing off-line is NOT necessarily the case with modern video games featuring heavy graphics, which need and Internet connection during game play, thus swallowing enormous amounts of band width for data transmission. Anticipating that some of our readers, especially the younger ones, may be thinking in terms of modern video games much more than in terms of venerable computer games such as Rogue, Larn, Hack, Nethack and the others, I have thought it advisable to make clear that Gnollhack follows the old philosophy of playing off-line, without needing Internet at all after installation.

I played Larn, Hack and Nethack version 3.4.3 years ago, using DOS systems in my own computers (initially MS-DOS, later Free-DOS). I play now in the Hardfought server, or also in my Android mobile telephone or my IPad tablet. I have Nethack likewise available in the Knoppix Linux distribution, where it is installed by default. The only recent derivative of Nethack that I have ever played is Gnollhack, I have never tried the others. About twenty are available in Hardfought (including the venerable Hack). Numbers of players devoted to each derivative are very different, Gnollhack being one of the lowest in popularity due to also being the newest. I hope that more Nethackers one day decide to try Gnollhack.

CSS Dixieland

2023-06-08 08:47:52 UTC

Correction published in the Gnollhack Forum by the creator of Gnollhack, Herre Tommi Gustafsson, regarding the name of the company that released the board game Dungeons and Dragons in 1973:

- - - -

Thanks for the summary of GnollHack. It was a well-written article.

There's a small mistake regarding Dungeons and Dragons. D&D was not released by Wizard of the Coast (which acquired the IP in 1997), but by TSR, Inc. (Tactical Studies Rules), which was founded in 1973 by Gary Gygax and Don Kaye. More about it here (hyper link).

- - - -

Reply by CSS Dixieland, in the same forum:

- - - -

Thanks for the correct information, Herre Gustafsson. In connection with a recent lawsuit involving Wizards of the Coast I have read a short introduction to how the physical board game of Dungeons and Dragons originated, and would become the main inspiration for Rogue and its derived dungeon games for computer. The introduction mentioned Mister Gary Gygax, but not Tactical Studies Rules.

I assumed, wrongly as it seems, that Wizards of the Coast had been the original publisher. However, the detailed information that You have indicated makes clear that the publisher was Tactical Studies Rules, which after a complicated series of splits, merges, and changes of ownership well explained in that report, would disappear as a separate company, acquired by Wizards of the Coast in 1997.

The report continues that Wizards of the Coast stopped using the trademark Tactical Studies Rules in 2000, with new releases referring only to Wizards of the Coast as the publisher. Hence comes the regrettable confusion. My conjecture is that the old name of 'Tactical Studies Rules' was purposely downplayed, simply not mentioned at all, in a misguided effort of making the lawsuit case stronger.

In spite of such a childish trick, in December 2022 the Court of Justice has ruled that Wizards of the Coast effectively ceased using the name of Tactical Studies Group, not renewing its legal register, and therefore the name does not belong to Wizards of the Coast anymore. Two new companies had begun using the old name, one of them commanded by the son of nothing less than Mister Gygax.

Besides the purely legal considerations, there is also a case of 'political correctness'. Mister Gygax (junior) correctly releases his products with the traditionally DIFFERENT rôles of different races in the game. An Orc does not behave like an Elf, nor does a Dwarf behave like a Human, for example. Their attributes and skills are, necessarily, different at the start of the game and during the game.

That biological reality has led some liberal-minded egalitarians to accuse Mister Gygax of being 'discriminatory', or worse epithets. However, not only such racial differences have ALWAYS been fundamental part of Dungeons and Dragons, Rogue, Hack, Nethack, Gnollhack, and of virtually all their derivatives, they are differences to be expected in games that feature various different races.

Or in any fictional work, such as a book or a cinematographic film. Otherwise even Mister Tolkien could be accused of 'discriminatory'. And in fact, a bunch of liberal cranks have gone as far as that, saying not too kind words of Mister J. R. R. Tolkien and calling him names. A product of the troubled times in which we are living. No one in Mister Tolkien's time would have dare say that about him...

Benjamin Heiligenbrunner

2023-06-01 10:24:19 UTC

I very well understand the frustration, and specifically with the
Protection Racket. I presume two aspects for introduction of that
dungeon level variant; variance (a chance for non-reliability of
certain features) and a style (atmosphere) issue.
Personally I don't do the PR, so I am less concerned in this case.
But not having a single priest (where you can donate) in the whole
dungeon is also bad.
There's a couple things that are quite essential in the roguelikes;
one other thing is having a container for your items. There are
games where I find a lot of bags (even a lot of bags of holding),
but in other games not a single sack even until mid-game. Then not
even having the 50% Sokoban chance but a further reduction to 25%
(marker/bag) only is also frustrating. At least at some point you
might get a chance of manufacturing one (e.g. with polymorph) or
to get a better container (e.g. by upgrading, in some variants).
But lacking temples (or, to a lesser degree, an altar to get some
artifact) or other dungeon features is something that the game must
provide (or compensate), you cannot work around it.
Some games cat get quite arduous and stress the fun factor. That's
part of the game-variant design to sensibly balance availability
of options and necessities.

Just out of curiosity: Do you know if it is possible to remedy this
situation somehow by wishing (by the guaranteed wand in the Castle)? I
could imagine wishing for a blessed figurine of a (properly aligned)
priest in a forsaken temple. Just a thought; I never had to try
something like this yet…

Benjamin

--
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires.
Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-- Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles

Janis Papanagnou

2023-06-01 11:31:28 UTC

Post by Benjamin Heiligenbrunner

Post by Janis Papanagnou
[...]
But lacking temples (or, to a lesser degree, an altar to get some
artifact) or other dungeon features is something that the game must
provide (or compensate), you cannot work around it.
Some games cat get quite arduous and stress the fun factor. That's
part of the game-variant design to sensibly balance availability
of options and necessities.

I seem to recall that in _wizard mode_ it had been possible to create
altars, but neither in ordinary games nor in a setup where a coaligned
priest could be appointed to the task to serve a temple. - Interesting
idea, though.

Janis

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

2023-06-01 17:10:38 UTC

On Thu, 1 Jun 2023 12:24:19 +0200, Benjamin Heiligenbrunner wrote:

[Protection racket: Priestless mines and main branch]

Post by Benjamin Heiligenbrunner
Just out of curiosity: Do you know if it is possible to remedy this
situation somehow by wishing (by the guaranteed wand in the Castle)? I
could imagine wishing for a blessed figurine of a (properly aligned)
priest in a forsaken temple. Just a thought; I never had to try
something like this yet…

Apart from the general problem already discussed by Janis: Just one
level below the castle is the guaranteed temple priest of the Valley
of the Dead. In Vanilla games, this one would be sufficient to buy
protection from.

BeAr

--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

Janis Papanagnou

2023-06-01 17:53:45 UTC

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
[Protection racket: Priestless mines and main branch]
Apart from the general problem already discussed by Janis: Just one
level below the castle is the guaranteed temple priest of the Valley
of the Dead. In Vanilla games, this one would be sufficient to buy
protection from.

I forgot about which variant we're talking here, so bear with me.
In some variants that I played recently it was not be possible to
donate at the Valley temple (Slashem, Hack'EM, EvilHack?, IIRC).

Janis

RecRanger

2023-06-02 00:28:41 UTC

You cannot in EvilHack. It even angers your god immensely.

Been so long since I've played Slash'EM, I do not recall.

--

Yosemite Sam

2023-05-26 22:24:11 UTC

The temple isn't empty. It has an altar to Moloch unless you've converted it.

Yes, Mister Yosemite Sam, I have meant temple and shops 'empty' in the sense that there is no personnel attending the premises. No priest, no shop keepers, and no guards. I hope that readers have correctly understood my words in that sense. Certainly the Orcs have NOT removed the altar, and hopefully various useful items can still be found in Mine Town even after the Orc occupation of the settlement, besides weapons, armour or other items carried by the Orcs themselves or by other enemies that per chance may appear.
However, as I have mentioned, the only method that I know for entering the streets of Mine Town (apart from walking along the paths approaching the urban area), is the use of potions of acid. A pick, a mattock, an axe, fire, or any other such methods do not work. If You or another player know of a different method than acid, pray be kind to inform.

No, Mister Umby, I have not tried digging. Mine Town is normally diggable, and I suppose that the Orc presence have not made it undiggable. Certainly a pick, a mattock, a wand of digging or another similar resource should be capable of making a hole. Not on the floor, because that would only transport me to a lower level of the Mines, but on the wall.
Your idea is EXCELLENT, Sir. Next time, whether I find Mine Town occupied by the fastidious Orcs or I find the normal Mine Town, I shall experiment with digging if I have some resource for doing it, or I shall return once I find a viable resource, unless I happen to be located in other parts of the dungeon far from the Mines. Thanks for the idea, Sir !

It's possible to be overwhelmed at the breach. The hall will be full of orcs just waiting to attack. Still, I sometimes dig an adjacent hole to the first before wielding my Warhammer again.

Julian

2023-09-26 04:08:06 UTC

Post by RecRanger

Post by nabru

I haven't been playing for awhile because I don't have a numpad. However, I've come up with this - I'm going to remap qweadzxc and use them to move and s will probably be search. Any better ideas?

How does one kick then? Are you limited to <CTRL> k? What if you
are on a server where one cannot use <CTRL> commands? Is it
#kick, then?
--

Kick is ^D.

CSS Dixieland

2023-05-22 00:03:52 UTC