[ having to pass back the retrieved quest prize to the leader ]
I guess I was not entirely clear. [...]
No, you were completely clear. (One of my paragraphs was about
complexity of changes; from design and implementation point of
view: "we need an effect; we define goals, compare solutions
with their implications, but keep it as simple as possible". My
criticisms was about the design/implementation-means to reach
the functional goal. The other paragraph just extended on one
deficiency of one current EvilHack "implementation detail".)
I think your quest proposals - which I always find interesting
to discuss - is worth an _independent_ consideration. For the
current "fix" I'd consider it just a [complex] overkill. YMMV.
One aspect I yet haven't elaborated on is the amount of penalty
you get. I already mentioned that the magnitude is far too high
for such an irreversible penalty. To make that more concrete I
want to make a comparison with [real life] "murder". Hereabouts
(and I suppose similar valuations can be found worldwide) we
distinguish killing of humans by various degrees; deliberate
murder with bad motives is typically punished a lot harder than
murder on impulse, and this still more if you had been impaired.
We need not but we can learn from sensible Real Life achievements
(as oppose to magic (or other) explanations for arbitrarities).
With respect to the roguelikes; if you are stunned or confused
you could get less punishment points than if you deliberately
kill peacefuls. (This is just a thought and certainly needs more
refinement and detailed consideration - e.g. got the player
confused by intent (there's a similar challenge in real life
judgement) - but you got the point.) But this is just another
additional aspect which doesn't address the irreversibility issue
in the first place.
And quest is meant to be quick but more difficult. Have it be a cavernous
level and the quest goal on the other side of the level. Have monsters
slightly more leveled, depending on degree of abuse. Also, maybe a time
limit and have hints as to time running out.
I have always wanted that in a roguelike. A prize in the center, or end, that
you must get before the monsters do. A race. A wand of death in the
center of a big room or cavernous level. Monsters are spawned on the
other side of the dungeon. Who gets there first . . . ? As you enter the
level: "You feel a sense of urgency."
I not a big fan of real (even real-time based) race conditions
in roguelikes (to say the least).
But EvilHack already has this (as an interesting design change)
implemented. I you have anywhere on a level a wand of death, or
such a wand even in some [open] container, intelligent monsters
passing will get and use them. The same with boxed armor/weapons.
So this is already present in that variant as base design concept.
With respect to the mentioned cavernous levels; I consider those
level types generally a good base dungeon territory type. Also
for the main dungeon and for Gehennom. From style and tactical
considerations from their random amorphous shape they'd add IMO
to playing fun. (I had in a private project played around with
different dungeon level types, but that would lead too far here,
and worth an own discussion thread.)
Janis