Level teleport traps and pets

[f***@gmail.com]

Why does my solar continuously jump on every level teleport trap it
encounters? In many places, I am forced to pass them in order to
continue descending. My Solar has stepped on two of three so far, and
hunting for it is fucking annoying. Level teleport traps should be
disarmable. They serve NO purpose once they are identified, other than
ruining peoples games for no reason. There should be some method to
destroying the filthy pieces of shit, no?

[DarthBob88]

Post by f***@gmail.com
Why does my solar continuously jump on every level teleport trap it
encounters? In many places, I am forced to pass them in order to
continue descending. My Solar has stepped on two of three so far, and
hunting for it is fucking annoying. Level teleport traps should be
disarmable. They serve NO purpose once they are identified, other than
ruining peoples games for no reason. There should be some method to
destroying the filthy pieces of shit, no?

Orta be, but, ah, how does one go about eliminating a piece of
technology or magic, which your hack-and-slasher knows bugger all
about, and which might well destroy you if you try deactivating it?
Might be a good idea, that. Have a small, non-zero chance of "You
remove the cover of the teleport trap--more" "You accidentally activate
it!--more" "All the molecules (or maybe various parts?) in your body
have been teleported to different levels. DYWYPI?" Nasty, but that's
the Nethack spirit, idinit?

[Ugly Newt]

I was hanging out with the cool kids in rec.games.roguelike.nethack when

[Teleport traps]
There should be some method to destroying the filthy pieces of shit, no?

Here's my preferred method:

1) get teleport control (usually by =oTC or tengu corpse [1])
2) activate trap (temporarily disabling your source of magic protection)
3) choose to teleport to the current level

If I haven't got hold of TC yet, I resort to:

1) activate trap
2) trek back to the level where the trap used to be

This second method is fairly safe (if time/move-consuming) for the traps
at the end of the gnomish mines, but less advisable in the main dungeon.


[1] - The Rogue Quest artifact will also do. And as you mentioned a
Solar, I assume we're talking [s] here. This provides yet another
(temporary) source of TC.

[Little White Mouse]

Post by f***@gmail.com
Why does my solar continuously jump on every level teleport trap it
encounters? In many places, I am forced to pass them in order to continue
descending. My Solar has stepped on two of three so far, and hunting for
it is fucking annoying. Level teleport traps should be disarmable. They
serve NO purpose once they are identified, other than ruining peoples
games for no reason. There should be some method to destroying the filthy
pieces of shit, no?

Triggering it will certainly make it go away (at least in Vanilla
nethack)...does anyone know if digging down will work on one of these??

--LWM

[Martin Read]

Post by f***@gmail.com
Why does my solar continuously jump on every level teleport trap it
encounters? In many places, I am forced to pass them in order to
continue descending. My Solar has stepped on two of three so far, and
hunting for it is fucking annoying. Level teleport traps should be
disarmable. They serve NO purpose once they are identified, other than
ruining peoples games for no reason. There should be some method to
destroying the filthy pieces of shit, no?

I don't know about SLASH'EM, but every trap in Nethack has *some* way of
being eliminated.

Trap doors, pits, and holes can be filled with boulders; all other traps
(er, except possibly land mines :-) can be smashed by applying your
pickaxe downwards; this replaces them with a pit, which can then be
filled with a boulder.

Land mines can be triggered by pushing a boulder onto them.

Land mines, bear traps, arrow traps, and dart traps can be #untrap'd
without additional equipment. Squeaky boards can be #untrap'd if you
have a suitable lubricant in your inventory.

[Simon Tatham]

Post by Martin Read
I don't know about SLASH'EM, but every trap in Nethack has *some* way of
being eliminated.

One you don't list in here is falling rock traps, which are terribly
annoying. Is there any way to disarm those other than by jumping up
and down on them until you run them out of ammo?

Another one you missed is rolling boulder traps, but they're easy
enough once you know how.

[Raisse the Thaumaturge]

Post by Simon Tatham
One you don't list in here is falling rock traps, which are terribly
annoying. Is there any way to disarm those other than by jumping up
and down on them until you run them out of ammo?

Dig a pit (there can't be two traps on the same square) and fill it. You
can use the boulder from the disabled rolling boulder trap :-)

Raisse, fell into a pit

[Dylan O'Donnell]

Post by Martin Read
I don't know about SLASH'EM, but every trap in Nethack has *some* way of
being eliminated.
Trap doors, pits, and holes can be filled with boulders; all other traps
(er, except possibly land mines :-) can be smashed by applying your
pickaxe downwards; this replaces them with a pit, which can then be
filled with a boulder.

Magic portals are the exception here: "The floor here is too hard to
dig in." (Land mines can be dug into pits without difficulty, which is
possibly an oversight.)

[Klaus Kassner]

Post by Martin Read

Post by f***@gmail.com
Why does my solar continuously jump on every level teleport trap it
encounters? In many places, I am forced to pass them in order to
continue descending. My Solar has stepped on two of three so far, and
hunting for it is fucking annoying. Level teleport traps should be
disarmable. They serve NO purpose once they are identified, other than
ruining peoples games for no reason. There should be some method to
destroying the filthy pieces of shit, no?

I don't know about SLASH'EM, but every trap in Nethack has *some* way of
being eliminated.

Not if it is on an undiggable level.

[Dylan O'Donnell]

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Martin Read
I don't know about SLASH'EM, but every trap in Nethack has *some*
way of being eliminated.

Not if it is on an undiggable level.

Even a level with a hard floor can have pits dug in it, just not holes.

[David Tillotson]

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Martin Read
I don't know about SLASH'EM, but every trap in Nethack has *some*
way of being eliminated.

Not if it is on an undiggable level.

Even a level with a hard floor can have pits dug in it, just not holes.

Technically, from a pedantic source-diving perspective, aren't pits and
holes traps themselves?


Atillo

[ManaUser]

Post by David Tillotson

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Martin Read
I don't know about SLASH'EM, but every trap in Nethack has *some*
way of being eliminated.

Not if it is on an undiggable level.

Even a level with a hard floor can have pits dug in it, just not holes.

Technically, from a pedantic source-diving perspective, aren't pits and
holes traps themselves?

Of course they are, but they're easy enough to get rid of. But to be
/really/ Pedantic we could include magic portals.

[Klaus Kassner]

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Martin Read
I don't know about SLASH'EM, but every trap in Nethack has *some*
way of being eliminated.

Not if it is on an undiggable level.

Even a level with a hard floor can have pits dug in it, just not holes.

Strange. I remember having tried to remove polymorph traps or level
teleporters or even simple teleport traps which were in an annoying
place (so you had to pass them each time you wanted to go to a certain
area) from the bottom level of the mines or of the dungeon by digging.
I got the message that the floor was too hard to dig in.

I mean I know that you can *encounter* pits in these levels, but I
thought that you cannot dig them yourselves.

[Dylan O'Donnell]

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Dylan O'Donnell
Even a level with a hard floor can have pits dug in it, just not holes.

Strange. I remember having tried to remove polymorph traps or level
teleporters or even simple teleport traps which were in an annoying
place (so you had to pass them each time you wanted to go to a certain
area) from the bottom level of the mines or of the dungeon by
digging. I got the message that the floor was too hard to dig in.

You can't dig a pit there with a pick-axe, only with a wand or spell
of digging. (Or you can create pits with a drum of earthquake, but
those are rather more scattershot.)

[Klaus Kassner]

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Dylan O'Donnell
Even a level with a hard floor can have pits dug in it, just not holes.

Strange. I remember having tried to remove polymorph traps or level
teleporters or even simple teleport traps which were in an annoying
place (so you had to pass them each time you wanted to go to a certain
area) from the bottom level of the mines or of the dungeon by
digging. I got the message that the floor was too hard to dig in.

You can't dig a pit there with a pick-axe, only with a wand or spell
of digging. (Or you can create pits with a drum of earthquake, but
those are rather more scattershot.)

I have tried it out in wizard mode now (actually in slashem, because I
don't have nethack on this computer; however, I presume the two games
don't differ in that respect). You can dig a pit both with a pick axe
and a wand of digging -- if there is no trap there already. If there is
a trap already -- I wished up a sleeping gas trap and a level teleporter
-- you get the message that the floor is too hard to dig in.

So it appears that on undiggable levels you cannot remove some traps, at
least not by digging. Which is precisely what I stated in my original
post :-). (To remove pits is trivial, of course.)

[Dylan O'Donnell]

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Dylan O'Donnell
Even a level with a hard floor can have pits dug in it, just not holes.

You can't dig a pit there with a pick-axe, only with a wand or spell
of digging. (Or you can create pits with a drum of earthquake, but
those are rather more scattershot.)

I have tried it out in wizard mode now (actually in slashem, because I
don't have nethack on this computer; however, I presume the two games
don't differ in that respect). You can dig a pit both with a pick axe
and a wand of digging -- if there is no trap there already. If there
is a trap already -- I wished up a sleeping gas trap and a level
teleporter -- you get the message that the floor is too hard to dig in.

I apologise, I must have mistested. You're quite right.

Post by Klaus Kassner
So it appears that on undiggable levels you cannot remove some traps,
at least not by digging. Which is precisely what I stated in my
original post :-). (To remove pits is trivial, of course.)

Applying a drum of earthquake will get there eventually, though you'll
probably need to do a fair amount of clean-up.

[Jove]

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Klaus Kassner
So it appears that on undiggable levels you cannot remove some traps,
at least not by digging. Which is precisely what I stated in my
original post :-). (To remove pits is trivial, of course.)

Applying a drum of earthquake will get there eventually, though you'll
probably need to do a fair amount of clean-up.

Break a charged wand of digging?

[BManx2000]

Post by Jove

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Klaus Kassner
So it appears that on undiggable levels you cannot remove some traps,
at least not by digging. Which is precisely what I stated in my
original post :-). (To remove pits is trivial, of course.)

Applying a drum of earthquake will get there eventually, though you'll
probably need to do a fair amount of clean-up.

Break a charged wand of digging?

I just tested it and that didn't work. The drum did, however.

[Dylan O'Donnell]

Post by Jove

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Klaus Kassner
So it appears that on undiggable levels you cannot remove some traps,
at least not by digging. Which is precisely what I stated in my
original post :-). (To remove pits is trivial, of course.)

Applying a drum of earthquake will get there eventually, though you'll
probably need to do a fair amount of clean-up.

Break a charged wand of digging?

Uses a different mechanism, which has (for the purposes of this
discussion) the same restrictions as zapping it. (It uses
digactualhole(), whereas the drum is a straight maketrap().)

[Klaus Kassner]

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Klaus Kassner
So it appears that on undiggable levels you cannot remove some traps,
at least not by digging. Which is precisely what I stated in my
original post :-). (To remove pits is trivial, of course.)

Applying a drum of earthquake will get there eventually, though you'll
probably need to do a fair amount of clean-up.

How do drums of earthquake work precisely? Do they distribute a number
of pits regardless of whether there is a trap already? So if there are
many pits already, their number would increase by fewer on average with
each new application of the drum, because some pits would appear where
there have already been some before. Or do they check for "free space"?
In fact, they must do some checks, because I don't think you can
create traps in water or in a wall this way.

[Philipp Lucas]

Post by Klaus Kassner
How do drums of earthquake work precisely? Do they distribute a number
of pits regardless of whether there is a trap already?

In the surrounding squares, each square has a chance of becoming a pit.
The chances for the squares are independent of each other, but depend only
on your level.

Existing traps (except for portals) get destroyed. A pit may be created on
a pit (so there is no change). A pit may also be created on a hole,
effectively filling up that trap.

Post by Klaus Kassner
Or do they check for "free space"?

Yes. (But fountains, sinks and the like also get destroyed.)

[Klaus Kassner]

Post by Philipp Lucas

Post by Klaus Kassner
How do drums of earthquake work precisely? Do they distribute a number
of pits regardless of whether there is a trap already?

In the surrounding squares, each square has a chance of becoming a pit.
The chances for the squares are independent of each other, but depend only
on your level.
Existing traps (except for portals) get destroyed. A pit may be created on
a pit (so there is no change). A pit may also be created on a hole,
effectively filling up that trap.

That's bizarre... (filling up a hole).

Post by Philipp Lucas

Post by Klaus Kassner
Or do they check for "free space"?

Yes. (But fountains, sinks and the like also get destroyed.)

What about altars?

I realized that fountains can be removed, but I don't think a moat
consisting of several connected water squares will.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Philipp Lucas

Post by Klaus Kassner
How do drums of earthquake work precisely? Do they distribute a number
of pits regardless of whether there is a trap already?

In the surrounding squares, each square has a chance of becoming a pit.
The chances for the squares are independent of each other, but depend only
on your level.

Post by Klaus Kassner
Or do they check for "free space"?

Yes. (But fountains, sinks and the like also get destroyed.)

What about altars?
I realized that fountains can be removed, but I don't think a moat
consisting of several connected water squares will.

Interestingly digging a pit adjacent to water fills that pit with water,
but applying a drum of earthquake will produce dry pits even if adjacent
to water. (Digging down from within such a pit will again fill it with
water.)

Janis

[Dylan O'Donnell]

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Interestingly digging a pit adjacent to water fills that pit with water,
but applying a drum of earthquake will produce dry pits even if adjacent
to water.

A bug that had the honour of being one of the longest resident on my
open list: reported to the DevTeam on 2000-09-22, returned as "fixed
in next major version" on 2004-06-08.

(Same thing happens with broken wands of digging.)

[Klaus Kassner]

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Interestingly digging a pit adjacent to water fills that pit with water,
but applying a drum of earthquake will produce dry pits even if adjacent
to water.

A bug that had the honour of being one of the longest resident on my
open list: reported to the DevTeam on 2000-09-22, returned as "fixed
in next major version" on 2004-06-08.
(Same thing happens with broken wands of digging.)

So it was acknowledged as a bug, at least... :-). I thought it was an
intended feature, to avoid immediate flooding of larger areas. (In any
case, the code would have to provide for the possibility of two or more
pits in a row appearing next to a moat, which would mean it has to look
farther than to the nearest (and next-nearest) neighbours of a square.)

[j***@eshow2000.com]

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Dylan O'Donnell

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Interestingly digging a pit adjacent to water fills that pit with water,
but applying a drum of earthquake will produce dry pits even if adjacent
to water.

A bug that had the honour of being one of the longest resident on my
open list: reported to the DevTeam on 2000-09-22, returned as "fixed
in next major version" on 2004-06-08.
(Same thing happens with broken wands of digging.)

So it was acknowledged as a bug, at least... :-). I thought it was an
intended feature, to avoid immediate flooding of larger areas. (In any
case, the code would have to provide for the possibility of two or more
pits in a row appearing next to a moat, which would mean it has to look
farther than to the nearest (and next-nearest) neighbours of a square.)

But that would be handled algorithmically. MakeAPit() would check
adjacent squares for water, FillAPit() would check adjacent squares for
pits. AFAIK, Nethack is a single tasking-single threaded app, so
anything that makes multiple pits simultaneously is actually making
several consecutive pits in a row before updating the display, so that
logic would work either way. (Function names made up, btw, I didn't
look at the source for the real names, but that's the concept)

Justin Hiltscher

[Klaus Kassner]

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Philipp Lucas

Post by Klaus Kassner
How do drums of earthquake work precisely? Do they distribute a number
of pits regardless of whether there is a trap already?

In the surrounding squares, each square has a chance of becoming a pit.
The chances for the squares are independent of each other, but depend only
on your level.

I realized that fountains can be removed, but I don't think a moat
consisting of several connected water squares will.

Interestingly digging a pit adjacent to water fills that pit with water,
but applying a drum of earthquake will produce dry pits even if adjacent
to water. (Digging down from within such a pit will again fill it with
water.)

Does digging a pit next to a moat *always* fill it with water? I seem to
recall having had cases where it did not, so I assumed it might remain
dry with a small probability.

[Philipp Lucas]

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Philipp Lucas

Post by Klaus Kassner
How do drums of earthquake work precisely?

A pit may also be created on a hole,
effectively filling up that trap.

That's bizarre... (filling up a hole).

Yes. I reported this as a bug a few years ago, but apparently this
behaviour is intended.

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Philipp Lucas
(But fountains, sinks and the like also get destroyed.)

What about altars?

Normal altars (not on the Astral Plane or in the Sanctum) may be
destroyed ("The altar falls into a chasm."), as well as graves, thrones,
fountains and sinks.

[Klaus Kassner]

Post by Philipp Lucas

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Philipp Lucas

Post by Klaus Kassner
How do drums of earthquake work precisely?

A pit may also be created on a hole,
effectively filling up that trap.

That's bizarre... (filling up a hole).

Yes. I reported this as a bug a few years ago, but apparently this
behaviour is intended.

Post by Klaus Kassner

Post by Philipp Lucas
(But fountains, sinks and the like also get destroyed.)

What about altars?

Normal altars (not on the Astral Plane or in the Sanctum) may be
destroyed ("The altar falls into a chasm."), as well as graves, thrones,
fountains and sinks.

Does a drum of earthquake work at all on the Astral Plane? (Somehow, if
scrolls of earth don't work, I would expect that a drum of earthquake
shouldn't, either. In fact, it should work on none of the planes except
earth. On air, it would not do much anyway, I guess, but on fire, one
could use it to remove most of the fire traps.)

[Philipp Lucas]

Post by Klaus Kassner
Does a drum of earthquake work at all on the Astral Plane?

Yes. It also works on the Planes of Air and Water, though only in the
sense that it frightens other monsters.

(The message "The entire dungeon is shaking around you!" on those planes
seems misplaced, though.)

Post by Klaus Kassner
On air, it would not do much anyway, I guess, but on fire, one
could use it to remove most of the fire traps.)

Sounds like too much work, but yes, you could do this.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Klaus Kassner
Does a drum of earthquake work at all on the Astral Plane? (Somehow, if
scrolls of earth don't work, I would expect that a drum of earthquake
shouldn't, either. In fact, it should work on none of the planes except
earth. On air, it would not do much anyway, I guess, but on fire, one
could use it to remove most of the fire traps.)

IMO, the drum should affect at least earth and fire level; on earth level
the non-stone bubbles could be re-arranged and falling rock traps created,
and on fire level new streams of lava should be opened (not of much help,
but just for style! ;-)

Janis

[David Damerell]

Post by f***@gmail.com
Why does my solar continuously jump on every level teleport trap it
encounters? In many places, I am forced to pass them in order to
continue descending. My Solar has stepped on two of three so far, and
hunting for it is fucking annoying.

And if you leave it long enough it goes hostile.

Post by f***@gmail.com
Level teleport traps should be
disarmable. They serve NO purpose once they are identified, other than
ruining peoples games for no reason.

The reason is (partly) to add a downside to very powerful pets.

Post by f***@gmail.com
There should be some method to destroying the filthy pieces of shit, no?

There is. Potty-mouthed, aren't we?

[f***@gmail.com]

Post by David Damerell
There is. Potty-mouthed, aren't we?

Words are words regardless of social stigma that might surround them.

Uptight, aren't we?