Water walking boots instead of levitation?

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Okay, so I'm at my stash, a couple of levels above
Medusa, and I've identified my stuff and discovered
that my only current source of levitation is the book;
I've successfully read it (using lenses), but the spell
gives me a 91% failure rate, which with my low max
power will be a problem. That's wearing a robe and
no metal except the helm of brilliance I was fortunate
enough to find, which is enchanted to +4. (I *have*
guantlets of power, but my strength is high enough
that I've switched to gauntlets of dexterity.)

I could polypile rings.

But I also have a pair of water walking boots. I've
never used water walking boots much before, so I'm
not entirely sure I'm clear on all their nuances. They
obviously won't be adequate for the castle (due to
the holes in the floor), but are they safe to use on
a large watery level like Medusa's Island? (I got
the open variant, with no titan.) Is that a good idea?
What pitfalls await me there?

This is my current NAO game, as a Lawful Human Valkyrie.

Details that may or may not be relevant:
Str18/24, Dx:19 (wearing +1 GoD), Co 18,
In 13 (wearing +4 HoB), Wi:18, Ch:7, XL13,
AC -23, HP 129, Pw 39.
Wielding blessed +6 rustproof Excalibur (expert),
and I have a stack of blessed +0 daggers (expert).

I might be able to up my stats a little with judicious
use of available potions, but it's not going to give
me enough power to retry the levitation spell as
many times in a row as I'd need to with a 91%
fail rate.

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

On Dec 20, 9:24 pm, Jonadab the Unsightly One
Forgot to mention: I'm wearing silver DSM and a robe,
the boots, the helm of brilliance, the gauntlets, a shirt
I found in a shop, and my original starting +3 small
shield, which is very rotten.

Oh, and I've got two pet (non-baby) silver dragons.

I got lucky with the DSM: a throne room several
levels ago just happened to contain a silver dragon
(only dragon I recall seeing so far), and it happened
to drop scales, and I was very pleased about that.
A couple of levels later, wearing the DSM, I lost
my MC3 faded pall to a polymorph trap and was
almost disappointed about that until I realized that
pet baby dragons would probably be buff enough
to take out the aligned priest in Minetown, so I
laid a couple of eggs and went back there for
the robe, recollecting a bunch of protection
money in the process and three books. I've
since found two more elvish cloaks, but since
I already had the robe I stuck with that.

I don't have magic resistance yet, but Excalibur is the
only artifact I've seen, so I'm hoping to get the castle
wand and wish for the magic mirror of Merlin. Failing
that, I may have to use a cloak of MR and keep the
robe at the stash for inventory-management spells,
or if I find gray dragon scales I might consider
making GDSM. But the magic mirror is my first
choice for MR.

[Rast]

Jonadab the Unsightly One wrote...

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
Okay, so I'm at my stash, a couple of levels above
Medusa,
But I also have a pair of water walking boots. I've
never used water walking boots much before, so I'm
not entirely sure I'm clear on all their nuances.

I'm not aware of any meaningful way in which levitation is better than
waterwalking for crossing Medusa.

But if you aren't ready to do the Castle, there's little point in
passing Medusa's level.

[derekt75]

Post by Rast
I'm not aware of any meaningful way in which levitation is better than
waterwalking for crossing Medusa.

agreed.

Post by Rast
But if you aren't ready to do the Castle, there's little point in
passing Medusa's level.

agreed...but isn't this Valk ready to get the wand out of the castle?
There's a 25% chance of getting leviation boots from Perseus's
statue. and once you get to the wand, you can wish for any way you
want to get over the trap doors.
If you're comfortable riding, my preference would be a blessed saddle
for one of the dragons. There are a lot of quirks to riding, though,
so read up on it if you're not familiar with it.

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Post by derekt75

Post by Rast
But if you aren't ready to do the Castle, there's little point in
passing Medusa's level.

agreed...but isn't this Valk ready to get the wand out of the castle?

The major thing I'm missing is a good source of levitation, and
yeah, it's possible that the statue of Perseus will give me one.
So if it's safe to attempt Medusa with the water walking boots,
that's probably what I'll do next.

It would also be nice to identify the scrolls of charging and/or
genocide. I'd hate to have to burn wishes on both of those.
Maybe I should polypile spare scrolls and rings, hoping to get
those and/or levitation?

Then again, the magic mirror is the only artifact I really want
(other than the invocation ones later and eventually the AoY),
and I've got a bag of holding already (three of them, in fact),
so depending on how charged the castle wand is when I get
it, I could end up with more wishes than I need.

Post by derekt75
If you're comfortable riding, my preference would be a blessed saddle
for one of the dragons. There are a lot of quirks to riding, though,
so read up on it if you're not familiar with it.

I haven't attempted riding yet. I've been meaning to do so, but
my initial plan was to do so as a knight first.

Should I try riding as a Valkyrie, if I've never ridden before?
Dragons are not particularly fast...

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

On Dec 21, 8:48 am, Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
The major thing I'm missing is a good source of levitation, and
yeah, it's possible that the statue of Perseus will give me one.
So if it's safe to attempt Medusa with the water walking boots,
that's probably what I'll do next.

Okay, I did that, but the statue only had a sack.

Furthermore, the next level is the castle, and telepathy
reveals several Ls (not purple, thankfully, but still), a
couple of disenchanters, and a golden naga. Not sure
I want to risk all of that just right now, so I went back
up and did a round or two of polypiling... but so far it
hasn't given me much that I was hoping for. Chancy
and unpredictable at the best of times, polypiling is,
and being pre-castle and pre-quest I have only limited
pile fodder.

One possible strategy at this point would be to go
back and do the quest, but that would increase the
number of artifacts in the game and reduce my
chances of getting the Magic Mirror from the castle
wand, so I'd prefer not to go that route if it can be
avoided safely.

I may do a little limited alchemy, but again, being
pre-castle and pre-quest, I only have so much raw
material to work with.

I suppose I could use the drawbridge-kills-all trick
to get the castle wand, but that always seems like
an unfortunate waste of monster inventory. Still,
in this instance it might give me the better shot at
getting the slotless MR of the Magic Mirror, which
could be worth it.

Other thoughts?

[Benjamin A. Schmit]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
The major thing I'm missing is a good source of levitation, and
yeah, it's possible that the statue of Perseus will give me one.
So if it's safe to attempt Medusa with the water walking boots,
that's probably what I'll do next.

Okay, I did that, but the statue only had a sack.
Furthermore, the next level is the castle, and telepathy
reveals several Ls (not purple, thankfully, but still), a
couple of disenchanters, and a golden naga. Not sure
I want to risk all of that just right now, so I went back
up and did a round or two of polypiling... but so far it
hasn't given me much that I was hoping for. Chancy
and unpredictable at the best of times, polypiling is,
and being pre-castle and pre-quest I have only limited
pile fodder.
One possible strategy at this point would be to go
back and do the quest, but that would increase the
number of artifacts in the game and reduce my
chances of getting the Magic Mirror from the castle
wand, so I'd prefer not to go that route if it can be
avoided safely.
I may do a little limited alchemy, but again, being
pre-castle and pre-quest, I only have so much raw
material to work with.
I suppose I could use the drawbridge-kills-all trick
to get the castle wand, but that always seems like
an unfortunate waste of monster inventory. Still,
in this instance it might give me the better shot at
getting the slotless MR of the Magic Mirror, which
could be worth it.
Other thoughts?

If it is really only one artifact you are after at this point, it may
well be worth to consider other sources of wishes. I guess you haven't
got a magic lamp to spare, but it might be worth to bless and quaff your
smoky potions at this point (potentially multiplying their number with
alchemy, if feasible) and to revisit the dungeon's fountains, sinks, and
thrones. I guess your character can handle the bad side-effects of
these methods by now.

Water walking also provides you with a side-effect free method of
blanking scrolls and diluting potions. You don't need to leave any
fountains for later. Just be careful with the minetown watch.

Benjamin

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
If it is really only one artifact you are after at this point, it may
well be worth to consider other sources of wishes.

I did bless and quaff all my smoky potions of extra healing.
I didn't get a djinni out of any of them, but it did boost my
max hitpoints somewhat, which is good too. (Before I
quaffed the first one, I didn't know whether the smoky
potion was extra healing or sleeping; I'm glad it was the
former.)

Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
I guess you haven't got a magic lamp to spare,

I've got two lamps of the same type, one of which ran
out of oil, so I suppose they're oil lamps. I've also got
one potion of oil, and a brass lantern, plus candles. (I
put seven candles in my stash, but Izchak has at least
that many more, if I wanted to use them as a light
source.)

Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
but it might be worth to bless and quaff your
smoky potions at this point (potentially multiplying
their number with alchemy, if feasible)

I didn't have any potions of speed, but then while
clearing Medusa's island I picked one up, and I have
a number of potions of healing, so yeah, that's now
an option.

Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
and to revisit the dungeon's fountains, sinks, and
thrones.

There've been two thrones so far. The first one gave
me just a puff of logic. The second one allowed me to
genocide mind flayers, made me feel out of place
several times, and then gave me a puff of logic.

I could consider fountains and sinks, yeah. I usually
save most of the fountains for potion-stack dipping to
make tons of holy water, but this dungeon does have
a fairly large number of them, so I may be able to
spare a handful for quaffing.

Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
I guess your character can handle the bad side-effects of
these methods by now.

I believe so.

Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
Water walking also provides you with a side-effect free method of
blanking scrolls and diluting potions. You don't need to leave any
fountains for later.

Oh. Interesting. Indeed, I may start quaffing from
fountains, then. Water nymphs will be annoying,
but as long as I don't leave the level until I track
them down and get my stuff back I should be okay,
especially on the low-numbered dungeon levels.

Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
Just be careful with the minetown watch.

I have two pet silver dragons, neither of which is still a baby,
and a magic whistle. The watch is unlikely to be a big problem
this game. I can get rid of them preemptively if I decide I want
exclusive jurisdiction over the Minetown fountains.

There are, however, a number of other fountains in the
dungeon, so that may not prove necessary.

[derekt75]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
I might be able to up my stats a little with judicious
use of available potions, but it's not going to give
me enough power to retry the levitation spell as
many times in a row as I'd need to with a 91%
fail rate.

Once I have enough potions to do it, I always alchemize enough blessed
potions of gain ability to max my stats.
and any healing/x-healing that don't need to go all the way to gain
ability get alchemized to full healing.

That won't give you more energy now, but it will reduce your failure
rate and make you gain more energy when you next level up.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
But I also have a pair of water walking boots. I've
never used water walking boots much before, so I'm
not entirely sure I'm clear on all their nuances. They
obviously won't be adequate for the castle (due to
the holes in the floor),

You can smash the drawbridge and use water walking to pass
the watery square at the Castle's front entry.

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
but are they safe to use on
a large watery level like Medusa's Island? (I got
the open variant, with no titan.) Is that a good idea?
What pitfalls await me there?

Getting drowned by sea creatures, or a spellcaster may
disintegrate your boots so that you drown as well. Other
pitfalls comprise that you can drown your pet by accident
if you are standing on a water square, and your pet on
solid ground, and you displace him; your god won't like
that.

Personally I prefer solid ground to pass Medusa's level;
I use the two scrolls of earth from Sokoban to create
boulders to bridge the water. This requires some planning
and a pickaxe.

Janis

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Post by Janis Papanagnou
You can smash the drawbridge and use water walking to pass
the watery square at the Castle's front entry.

I have an instrument (a flute), so if the drawbridge doesn't
actually get _destroyed_, I could get in even without the
water walking boots.

However, I don't want to go _past_ the castle, or try to
get into the castle store rooms, until I have levitation,
because I'd fall to the Valley and have no way back.
I don't want to be separated from my stash like that,
if it can possibly be avoided.

I can probably get the wand without crossing those
pits, though.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Getting drowned by sea creatures, or a spellcaster may
disintegrate your boots so that you drown as well.

As far as losing the boots and drowning as a result,
the water walking boots shouldn't be any worse than
levitation boots in that regard.

I'm not sure about sea creatures. I do have a couple
of cans of grease and am keeping my robe greased,
so that should make drowning less likely, I hope...

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Other pitfalls comprise that you can drown your pet
by accident if you are standing on a water square,
and your pet on solid ground, and you displace him;
your god won't like that.

In this game the only pets I currently have are the
two silver dragons, and I believe they can fly.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Personally I prefer solid ground to pass Medusa's level;
I use the two scrolls of earth from Sokoban to create
boulders to bridge the water. This requires some planning
and a pickaxe.

I've done it that way before too, but I'm always afraid
that I'll mis-type one of the direction keys (or accidentally
hit it twice instead of once) and soak all of my inventory.
I've rustproofed *some* of my armor, and I greased the
bag of holding, but I still would prefer not to take that
risk. Fortunately, I have water walking boots this time.

In some ways, the water walking boots are actually
proving to be *better* than levitation, because I don't
have to take them off to pick things up off the ground,
and then I don't forget to put them back on and step
in the water.

I still need a way to cross the pits at the castle, though.

[Benjamin A. Schmit]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
[...]

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Other pitfalls comprise that you can drown your pet
by accident if you are standing on a water square,
and your pet on solid ground, and you displace him;
your god won't like that.

In this game the only pets I currently have are the
two silver dragons, and I believe they can fly.

One more argument for riding them. Does anyone know if the sea
creatures can grab you while riding? Will they try to drown a flying
steed or rider?

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Personally I prefer solid ground to pass Medusa's level;
I use the two scrolls of earth from Sokoban to create
boulders to bridge the water. This requires some planning
and a pickaxe.

I've done it that way before too, but I'm always afraid
that I'll mis-type one of the direction keys (or accidentally
hit it twice instead of once) and soak all of my inventory.
I've rustproofed *some* of my armor, and I greased the
bag of holding, but I still would prefer not to take that
risk. Fortunately, I have water walking boots this time.

The water walking boots are still great as a protection against getting
wet in this case – even if you prefer to create the dry path.

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
In some ways, the water walking boots are actually
proving to be *better* than levitation, because I don't
have to take them off to pick things up off the ground,
and then I don't forget to put them back on and step
in the water.
I still need a way to cross the pits at the castle, though.

Only if you want to get the merchandise from the stores. The rest of
the castle, including the wand of wishing, can be accessed without
crossing the trap doors. On the way up you can also go around the castle.

BTW, another valid option for the trap doors is jumping – I sometimes
forget that myself. There's a spell and a boots variety. Or you can
use a scroll of earth to fill some of them, leaving at least one open
for later passage into Gehennom.

Benjamin

[BanMido]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Janis Papanagnou
You can smash the drawbridge and use water walking to pass
the watery square at the Castle's front entry.

I have an instrument (a flute), so if the drawbridge doesn't
actually get _destroyed_, I could get in even without the
water walking boots.
[...]

I guess you have already considered this but in case you haven't, if you
have a ring of polymorph control, you could polymorph into a Xorn or an
Earth elemental and get the chest containing the wand without fighting
the entire contingent of soldiers and other monsters.

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
I can probably get the wand without crossing those
pits, though.
[...]

Yes you can, no problems there.

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
I'm not sure about sea creatures. I do have a couple
of cans of grease and am keeping my robe greased,
so that should make drowning less likely, I hope...
[...]

If you have a pole-arm (the chances of not having one by now are very
small I think), you could kill off the sea monsters with it and
eliminate that risk altogether. Better safe than sorry.

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Post by BanMido
I guess you have already considered this but in case you haven't, if you
have a ring of polymorph control, you could polymorph into a Xorn or an
Earth elemental and get the chest containing the wand without fighting
the entire contingent of soldiers and other monsters.

Interesting thought. As it happens, I believe I do have a
ring of polymorph control. I'd have to doff my armor and
leave most of my inventory behind (stashed, presumably),
but having the wand before opening the drawbridge might
solve the L/R problem (I haven't identified scrolls of
genocide yet, and telepathy says the room behind the
bridge contains several red Ls and two disenchanters).

Post by BanMido

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
I'm not sure about sea creatures. I do have a couple
of cans of grease and am keeping my robe greased,
so that should make drowning less likely, I hope...

If you have a pole-arm [...] you could kill off the sea
monsters with it and eliminate that risk altogether.
Better safe than sorry.

Good point. Losing this game now to a preventable
drowning would not make me particularly happy, and
I'm sure I saw a couple of trolls using polearms earlier.
I'm not a big fan of polearms for most purposes, but
moat dwellers do seem like an ideal application.

[BanMido]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Janis Papanagnou
You can smash the drawbridge and use water walking to pass
the watery square at the Castle's front entry.

I have an instrument (a flute), so if the drawbridge doesn't
actually get _destroyed_, I could get in even without the
water walking boots.
[...]

I guess you have already considered this but in case you haven't, if you
have a ring of polymorph control, you could polymorph into a Xorn or an
Earth elemental and get the chest containing the wand without fighting
the entire contingent of soldiers and other monsters.

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
I can probably get the wand without crossing those
pits, though.
[...]

Yes you can, no problems there.

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
I'm not sure about sea creatures. I do have a couple
of cans of grease and am keeping my robe greased,
so that should make drowning less likely, I hope...
[...]

If you have a pole-arm (the chances of not having one by now are very
small I think), you could kill off the sea monsters with it and
eliminate that risk altogether. Better safe than sorry.

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by BanMido
If you have a pole-arm (the chances of not having one by now are very
small I think), you could kill off the sea monsters with it and
eliminate that risk altogether. Better safe than sorry.

Pole arms are in the initial inventory of a portion of all trolls
generated plus there are likely to be some if your game has Ft Ludios.
Killing sea monsters does not require skill so if you use a pole arm for
that it can be the only time you use one in the game.

If you're a class that can get skilled in polearm it can work to stand a
knight jump from the gate, open it, and use it to kill monsters as they
advance. You can take out a lot of them before some get past and you
have to switch to other means.

For disenchanters I definitely favor using the drawbridge. One
disenchanter can scatter a nice big stack of highly enchanted daggers
into several stacks of less enchanted ones.

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Post by Doug Freyburger
Pole arms are in the initial inventory of a portion of all trolls
generated plus there are likely to be some if your game has Ft Ludios.

I don't think this game has Ft. Ludios (I've dug out the vaults on all
of the levels that I know have them), but I'm pretty sure I did see
some trolls using polearms earlier.

Post by Doug Freyburger
Killing sea monsters does not require skill so if you use a pole arm for
that it can be the only time you use one in the game.

Indeed.

Post by Doug Freyburger
For disenchanters I definitely favor using the drawbridge.

That'll be my secondary option if I can't just genocide them.
IMO the whole R class provides no benefit to the player, so
the only times I wouldn't genocide them would be if I were
going for genocideless conduct, or lacked the means. They're
not my highest-priority genocide, though; that dubious honor
is reserved for the two kinds of mind flayers (non-blessed) or
L (blessed).

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
In some ways, the water walking boots are actually
proving to be *better* than levitation, because I don't
have to take them off to pick things up off the ground,
and then I don't forget to put them back on and step
in the water.

And you can dilute potions and blank scrolls with those boots
of water walking.

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
I still need a way to cross the pits at the castle, though.

If you don't want to get to the dragons or to the store rooms
there's no need to pass the traps, if you have (levitation or
water walking) boots to circumvent the Castle. For convenience
I usually fill all but one of the traps with boulders from a
scroll of earth; so I can reach the store rooms if I like, from
one side, *or* from the other (not both). If you can jump this
would be an additional option to pass the traps; the spell of
jumping is awesome. You can also try to pass the one remaining
trapdoor, rinse repeat, until you are lucky and don't fall in.
You can also fill all trapdoors and use level-teleport to pass
that level downwards - personally I don't like that idea, but
at least it can be a viable option in some games. You also
mentioned two pet dragons - yes, they can fly -; you could get
a saddle (or wish for one) and ride the flying critters to pass
the trapdoors.

Janis

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Post by Janis Papanagnou
And you can dilute potions and blank scrolls with those boots
of water walking.

Nifty. I didn't realize how useful water walking boots were
until now. (Of course, I've never really had identified water
walking boots before.)

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
I still need a way to cross the pits at the castle, though.

If you don't want to get to the dragons or to the store rooms

Eventually I will want to, but it can wait.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
there's no need to pass the traps, if you have (levitation or
water walking) boots to circumvent the Castle.

Oh, I didn't even think about that. I always go through...

Post by Janis Papanagnou
For convenience I usually fill all but one of the traps with
boulders from a scroll of earth; so I can reach the store
rooms if I like, from one side, *or* from the other (not both).

Good tip, thanks. I may just do that.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
If you can jump this would be an additional option to
pass the traps; the spell of jumping is awesome.

I've not tried using the spell of jumping, but maybe I
should play around with it -- if only to get familiar with
its capabilities.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
You can also try to pass the one remaining
trapdoor, rinse repeat, until you are lucky and don't fall in.

If I were desperate, I suppose, but I'd rather reserve
the ability to *reliably* get back past the castle to my
stash without falling into the Valley, in case there's
something down there I don't want to deal with at
some particular moment.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
You can also fill all trapdoors and use level-teleport to pass
that level downwards - personally I don't like that idea,

I'm not a big fan of that one either.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
You also mentioned two pet dragons - yes, they can fly
-; you could get a saddle (or wish for one) and ride the
flying critters to pass the trapdoors.

Yeah, sooner or later I'm going to experiment with riding.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
But I also have a pair of water walking boots. I've
never used water walking boots much before, so I'm
not entirely sure I'm clear on all their nuances. They
obviously won't be adequate for the castle (due to
the holes in the floor),

You can smash the drawbridge and use water walking to pass
the watery square at the Castle's front entry.

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
but are they safe to use on
a large watery level like Medusa's Island? (I got
the open variant, with no titan.) Is that a good idea?
What pitfalls await me there?

Getting drowned by sea creatures, or a spellcaster may
disintegrate your boots so that you drown as well. Other
pitfalls comprise that you can drown your pet by accident
if you are standing on a water square, and your pet on
solid ground, and you displace him; your god won't like
rthat.

Personally I prefer solid ground to pass Medusa's level;
I use the two scrolls of earth from Sokoban to create
boulders to bridge the water. This requires some planning
and a pickaxe.

Janis

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Janis Papanagnou

But I also have a pair of water walking boots ...
but are they safe to use on
a large watery level like Medusa's Island? (I got
the open variant, with no titan.) Is that a good idea?
What pitfalls await me there?

Getting drowned by sea creatures, or a spellcaster may
disintegrate your boots so that you drown as well. Other
pitfalls comprise that you can drown your pet by accident
if you are standing on a water square, and your pet on
solid ground, and you displace him; your god won't like
rthat.

Water monsters can grab you and pull you down with water walking boots
but not with levitation, right? If you clear the level of water
monsters there is still the risk of new ones spawning. Krakens are too
strong to spawn at the Castle I think but they are not the only type of
grabbing sea monster.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Personally I prefer solid ground to pass Medusa's level;
I use the two scrolls of earth from Sokoban to create
boulders to bridge the water. This requires some planning
and a pickaxe.

Ice does work but it carries more risk. Some fire breathing monsters
will start spawning on the Medusa level in some games. Real solid
ground with boulders is safer but I have had bad luck from boulders
splashing into the water and disappearing.

I've tried saving my scrolls of earth for the Castle level to make a
land bridge to the back gate. Times I've tried that I have run out of
boulders before I got all of the way to the back.

[Ralf Damaschke]

Post by Doug Freyburger
Water monsters can grab you and pull you down with water walking
boots but not with levitation, right?

No, neither saves you from grab-and-drown attacks. Grease or
oilskin cloak help.

Post by Doug Freyburger
If you clear the level of
water monsters there is still the risk of new ones spawning.

That's impossible. No ";" is generated randomly.

-- Ralf

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Post by Ralf Damaschke

Post by Doug Freyburger
If you clear the level of
water monsters there is still the risk of new ones spawning.

That's impossible. No ";" is generated randomly.

I did not know that.

Sometimes it definitely seems like they do, but such
creatures do have a tendency to not always get noticed
(being invisible due to submersion, or somesuch), so it
could be just that.

[BanMido]

Post by Ralf Damaschke
[...]

Post by Doug Freyburger
If you clear the level of
water monsters there is still the risk of new ones spawning.

That's impossible. No ";" is generated randomly.

Agreed, but what if a chameleon or a doppelganger transforms into an eel...

I think I am being a little more paranoid than usual. That is a good
thing in NetHack, right?

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Personally I prefer solid ground to pass Medusa's level;
I use the two scrolls of earth from Sokoban to create
boulders to bridge the water. This requires some planning
and a pickaxe.

Ice does work but it carries more risk. Some fire breathing monsters
will start spawning on the Medusa level in some games.

Been there, done that, drowned there. I had met a water troll with a
wand of fire. :-( (I burnt my fingers, so I won't do that again.)

Post by Doug Freyburger
Real solid
ground with boulders is safer but I have had bad luck from boulders
splashing into the water and disappearing.

The chance for disappearing is only 1 in 10. In most games the boulder
path works perfectly. I recall a recent game, though, where 5 of the 9
boulders sunk with no trace. You can't rely on it, but it's worth a try.

Post by Doug Freyburger
I've tried saving my scrolls of earth for the Castle level to make a
land bridge to the back gate.

(Hmm.., you'd need at least 18 (non-sinking) boulders to do that.)
Why do you go that way? You can often find a bugle in barracks on your
way down to the castle, which makes entering (and solving the powerful
monster horde problem) through the guillotine to be the easier path.

Post by Doug Freyburger
Times I've tried that I have run out of
boulders before I got all of the way to the back.

On average you'd need more that 2 scrolls (exactly 2, if you're lucky).

For the path past Medusa's sea you'll typically have spare boulders, so
if one sinks it's no problem if you choose your path carefully.

Janis

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Personally I prefer solid ground to pass Medusa's level;
I use the two scrolls of earth from Sokoban to create
boulders to bridge the water. This requires some planning
and a pickaxe.

Ice does work but it carries more risk. Some fire breathing monsters
will start spawning on the Medusa level in some games.

Been there, done that, drowned there. I had met a water troll with a
wand of fire. :-( (I burnt my fingers, so I won't do that again.)

Hell hound in my case.

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Doug Freyburger
I've tried saving my scrolls of earth for the Castle level to make a
land bridge to the back gate.

(Hmm.., you'd need at least 18 (non-sinking) boulders to do that.)
Why do you go that way?

A fortune cookie suggested it so I tried it a few times. it works but
it's really a tactic for players who do not know the use of muscial
instruments. Worth trying a few times just because of the fortune
cookie.

Alternately it's worth trying for a character who has enough of an
ascension kit who just wants to ignore the crowd of monsters in the
Castle and also ignore the wand. I did that once when I inherited most
of an ascension kit from a bones file but it's not a common event.

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Doug Freyburger
Some fire breathing monsters
will start spawning on the Medusa level in some games.

Been there, done that, drowned there. I had met a water troll with a
wand of fire. :-( (I burnt my fingers, so I won't do that again.)

Hell hound in my case.

The wiki claims those are only generated in Gehennom.

But come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I've seen them in the
Mines, so maybe the wiki is full of bologna on this point.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Doug Freyburger
Some fire breathing monsters
will start spawning on the Medusa level in some games.

Been there, done that, drowned there. I had met a water troll with a
wand of fire. :-( (I burnt my fingers, so I won't do that again.)

Hell hound in my case.

The wiki claims those are only generated in Gehennom.

Did Doug said he met them at Medusa or probably at Juiblex? Don't recall.
But anyway; there's always a chance of a polytrap or a shape changer, I
suppose. (Nethack is full of "Yes, but there's an exception that makes
even the impossible possible." sort of experiences.)

Janis

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Doug Freyburger
Some fire breathing monsters
will start spawning on the Medusa level in some games.

Been there, done that, drowned there. I had met a water troll with a
wand of fire. :-( (I burnt my fingers, so I won't do that again.)

Hell hound in my case.

The wiki claims those are only generated in Gehennom.

Strange. I've seen hell hound pups in plenty of level but I don't
recall them using their breath. How would a hell hound pup manage to
get a !oGL to turn into a hell hound? Must have been a polymorph trap.

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Doug Freyburger
Some fire breathing monsters
will start spawning on the Medusa level in some games.

Been there, done that, drowned there. I had met a water troll with a
wand of fire. :-( (I burnt my fingers, so I won't do that again.)

Hell hound in my case.

The wiki claims those are only generated in Gehennom.
But come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I've seen them in the
Mines, so maybe the wiki is full of bologna on this point.

I just looked them up. It had to have been a hell hound pup. Their
attack is listed as "2d6 B2d6F". They do breathe fire. Most of the
time I encounter hell hound pups at close quarters so I don't see them
use their breath attack. On the Medusa level they were on a different
island so when I came within range they did use their breath attack.
Hell hound pups not hell hounds.

I have not had fire ants drown me by melting the ice I was standing on.
Only a matter of time. ;^(

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Doug Freyburger
Hell hound in my case.

The wiki claims those are only generated in Gehennom.
But come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I've seen them in the
Mines, so maybe the wiki is full of bologna on this point.

I just looked them up. It had to have been a hell hound pup.

The wiki claims those are only generated in Gehennom, too.

Post by Doug Freyburger
I have not had fire ants drown me by melting the ice I was
standing on. Only a matter of time. ;^(

I try to avoid standing on ice, but there are times when
it cannot be entirely avoided, e.g., on the Valkyrie quest
some of the up or down stairs may be totally surrounded
by ice, which you have to traverse when entering or
leaving the level, (unless you have teleport control, I
suppose). In my current game I was somewhat protected
from this by virtue of having fireproof water walking boots
(which were also a majorly nice safety net for the lava
levels; I never actually stepped onto the lava, but I felt
a lot better about being in its general vicinity with those
boots on), but I don't imagine you can count on always
having such a boon.

(Of course, real-world physics would kill you quickly
if you walked or levitated or flew at low altitude over
liquid lava, but I've never seen anyone get polymorphed
into a black dragon and breathe disintegration beams
at their enemies in the real world either.)

[Doug Freyburger]

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Doug Freyburger

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Doug Freyburger
Hell hound in my case.

The wiki claims those are only generated in Gehennom.
But come to think of it, I'm pretty sure I've seen them in the
Mines, so maybe the wiki is full of bologna on this point.

I just looked them up. It had to have been a hell hound pup.

The wiki claims those are only generated in Gehennom, too.

That I definitely don't buy. I've seen hell hound pups in plenty of
levels before the Castle. Too many for them to have been generated by
polymorph traps.

[Jonadab the Unsightly One]

Post by Doug Freyburger
Water monsters can grab you and pull you down
with water walking boots but not with levitation, right?

That sounds logical, but I don't actually know.

Post by Doug Freyburger
If you clear the level of water monsters there is still
the risk of new ones spawning. Krakens are too
strong to spawn at the Castle I think but they are
not the only type of grabbing sea monster.

Eels can grab and drown you, according to the wiki.

Post by Doug Freyburger
Ice does work but it carries more risk. Some fire breathing monsters
will start spawning on the Medusa level in some games.

I've seen red nagas on Medusa's level, and I suspect a
red dragon is probably possible too.

I've used scrolls of earth to get past Medusa's Island, but
I've also mistyped a direction and my inventory wet, so it's
not my favorite technique.

[JRBrown]

On Dec 20 2011, 9:24 pm, Jonadab the Unsightly One

Post by Jonadab the Unsightly One
Okay, so I'm at my stash, a couple of levels above
Medusa, and I've identified my stuff and discovered
that my only current source of levitation is the book;
[snip]
But I also have a pair of water walking boots.

I dunno if anyone has suggested this yet, but one of my favorite
castle strategies is this:

Kill off the water monsters, and go around the back of the castle
using the water walking boots. Create some boulders and fill up all
the trapdoors *except* the one closest to the throne room (you'll have
to deal with the dragons, but you get to rummage through the
storerooms). Use a wand/spell of opening or striking/force bolt on the
door to the throneroom, then stand in the corridor and go "neener
neener neener" until all the non-flying monsters from the throneroom,
front room and barracks have fallen down the trapdoor and into the
VotD (you'll have to deal with the flying ones). If there are giants,
watch out for extra boulders that may block the last trapdoor;
striking/force bolt/stone-to-flesh them ASAP.

When the main castle has been cleared out (except for anybody stuck in
locked areas), go around the front again, open the drawbridge by your
favorite method, and go get the wand. You'll have to deal with all the
castle inhabitants when you go through the VotD, but by then you
should have a full kit from the wand.