Lets face it: it's the Altar

[Chris Bowers]

But, to be honest it's just all about the Altar.

There's a guaranteed Altar in minetown. You can convert it with sneaky bouldering of the priest there if it's not co-aligned. But he can summon insects when you try to convert the altar. What beats insects? Well, a decent artifact weapon will make short work of them. So the minetown altar if cross aligned for the purposes of generating an artifact weapon doesn't work out very well. You CAN use wands outside the altar to kill the priest. Real risky though!

Just had a very successful game with a Tourist. Tourist and Healer are my absolute worst classes. Archaeologist is pretty bad for me too.

This Tourist was a breeze because: altar level 1. The Altar, not just letting me curse test things but provided holy water to do things like uncurse stuff in bones files, bless really important scrolls that were Price ID'd to be on the level of enchant armor/enchant weapon, and lastly to bless magic lamps and get early wishes.

They say that you should go to sokobon to get food to sacrifice. This usually isn't true though. Exploring the first few levels of the dungeon may provide enough food that at a low level (3 or 4) you can pretty reliably get an artifact weapon (after all at low levels the type of sacrifices you need to do are much easier to get a gift with).

I think pretty much the Altar is the whole key to the game, and if not the altar, a way to get an artifact weapon (such as dipping for lawfuls).

Looking back on past failed games nearly every one had the same problem: lack of a co-aligned altar or lack of a way to get an artifact weapon (or both).

The artifact weapon is an absolute fulcrum of the game. It gets you out of dozens of bad situations with monsters which kill lots of players. An altar is also key for so many other reasons: detecting cursed items, getting holy water, getting luck from sacrificing, and so on.

So, the... kind of annoying thing about it is that really what's going on is that games you find or can convert a co-aligned altar: you win. Games without one: you lose.

Now that's not every single game. Once I found a fully charged WoW! on the 2nd level of the gnomish mines. That was a fun and very easy ascension.

But the real deal, the real thing I think needs to be faced is that an altar and all it's advantages (luck, holy water, curse testing, artifact weapon generating), is such a super boon, that the fact that they are random makes the difficulty of the game (IMHO) depend a lot on luck.

It seems like players are resistant to this conclusion, that really the cause and effect going on is: altar=very likely ascension. No altar= difficult ascension or possibly death.

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

There's a guaranteed Altar in minetown. You can convert it [...] Real
risky though!

I often feel conflicted about living *trices in such a situation. If dead,
not so much. (But I better like the former state...) - Be sure, to first
acquire at least base protection, beforehand. It may be your last chance
for quite a while...

altar and all it's advantages (
luck,

Don't forget playing fetch-the-gem with unicorns.

holy water,

Never use up a sole (= first; or last if part of a stack) such potion.
Then you can always create new ones without an altar. Although /finding/
(not creating) holy water is rare, it usually happens eventually.

curse testing,

Works with /any/ altar. Don't forget pets, either.

artifact weapon generating)

Rely more on distance-fighting, as long as you are not really melee-ready.

It seems like players are resistant to this conclusion, that really the
cause and effect going on is: altar=very likely ascension. No altar=
difficult ascension or possibly death.

There are many effects, making early game easier, if present. Like shops
with interesting loot and ability to make money from selling. Or early
good rings and amulets. Or appropriate monsters with their corpses giving
resistances on first try. Or having means to identify lots of items, which
makes using the necessary ones in each situation much easier. Or decent
(maybe even special) armor. And so on...

"Easy" early games alternate with "harder" ones. And quite often, the
former lead to sudden obstacles followed by death, while the second
rather make the player more cautious and result in slower advancing
characters, that are more (generally) prepared for each new dungeon
level.

BeAr

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
"Easy" early games alternate with "harder" ones. And quite often, the
former lead to sudden obstacles followed by death, while the second
rather make the player more cautious and result in slower advancing
characters, that are more (generally) prepared for each new dungeon
level.

I think this specifically is worth emphasizing.

Janis

[Chris Bowers]

Yes in Nethack anything can happen. But as a GENERAL rule, the Altar is a very important boon that, if in an early game makes it really not a difficult ascension at all.

Now of course, there are people who are going to say "Every game should be ascendable" and that "There are other strategies if you don't find an altar."

Certainly there are. Certainly there are.

However other strategies are SLOW. They are very, very, very tedious and slow. There are missile weapons. So is running away each time there is a hard monster to heal up. So is the use of spells. So is engraving elbereth on every square you walk on, (or using it very frequently). So is very cautiously hiding behind your pet and having it take all the damage. So is picking up every single piece of armor in the mines dragging it to an altar and testing it.

Sure there's a way to win without a co-aligned altar. But it's slow as molasses and it isn't super fun (at least not for me). Do you want to walk around and pick up missile weapons every second of the game? Do you want to always use elbereth or flash photography to run away, or a pick axe to dig a pit to escape.

No. I don't want to do that. I don't want to play a hugely tedious game of cat and mouse with everything. I COULD. But I don't want to do that.

In terms of ascension per time units, if you play a game without an altar/artifact weapon it's going to take you 2x-3x the time it would take someone who carefully searches every square, carefully uses their pet at every moment, and carefully picks up every missile weapon. Not only that ,but the 3x I ascended in comparison to your one careful ascension are going to be FUN and ENJOYABLE. Not an endless slog of menial tasks.

You can ascend more difficult games. I've ascended a petless, elebereth-less wishless dude before, sure. You can take keys off your keyboard if you want to. So sure I could sit there for a really long time and ascend a player without use of an altar or without dipping or wishing for an artifact weapon. Yes, I could certainly do it. But IS THAT FUN? No.

There is a sense from Nethack users "Well if you're a REAL MAN then you can ascend without an altar."

Well, sure. But I'm still a real man if I don't want to play a hugely tedious game full of menial tasks.

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

On Wed, 3 Aug 2022 09:21:33 -0700 (PDT), Chris Bowers wrote:

[Altar-centered strategies vs. alternatives]

Post by Chris Bowers
However other strategies are SLOW. They are very, very, very tedious and
slow. There are missile weapons. So is running away each time there is a
hard monster to heal up. So is the use of spells. So is engraving
elbereth on every square you walk on, (or using it very frequently). So
is very cautiously hiding behind your pet and having it take all the
damage. So is picking up every single piece of armor in the mines
dragging it to an altar and testing it.

The flexibility of possible strategies and sometimes severe differences
between them are the most important source of the fun derived from the
game for many players, I think. Maybe not for you. - As of yet. In a couple
of years you may think otherwise. ;-)

A guaranteed early (co-aligned) altar would make the game much more
predictable. But I (obviously) have a completely different approach to
the game. While you try to win it fast and often, I don't really care
about ascending, at all. I usually abandon (#quit) a character, when
it is satisfactorily well-equipped to make ascension highly likely.
Now and then I also ascend characters. But the time between finishing
most of the preparation and ascension is tedious for /me/. ;-)

Post by Chris Bowers
Do you want to walk around and pick up missile weapons every second of the
game?

Use autopickup to /only/ pick up specifically named items and name your
quiver content (and maybe other missiles and throwing weapons), accordingly.
AUTOPICKUP_EXCEPTION is great for this:

https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Autopickup_exception

You still have to "walk around" for the pickup, though... ;-)

BeAr

[Chris Bowers]

There's nothing wrong with playing different types of games. There's nothing wrong with role difficulty or with Slash em, which makes altars rare.

By my lights in nethack altars aren't that rare. There's a real good chance you find an altar by level 10, and a real good chance that the altar in minetown is co-aligned (1/3).

So, really it's just the more rare games where you don't have access to an altar in the early game, and those games are really, really a whole lot more difficult.

Maybe people like to have 1/5 games or so be really difficult. That's cool. I understand that. Rock on.

But I don't like it. It's just a sort of "well your game sucks" and really isn't too consistent with the overall flavor. It's the same sort of "well your game sucks" with Ft. Ludios not being there in a small percentage of the game. I don't understand that sort of game design, I don't agree with it, and I don't think it's fun.

I also am not a big fan of complete tedium and molasses slow progress which is what those non-altar games create.

Game design-wise, I would simply have a dungeon branch with a guaranteed altar at the end and something difficult guarding it. It's a good reward.

Someone getting an altar on level 1 and consequently getting holy water, a nice artifact at xp3 while someone else has to wait until they are strong enough to take on a PRIEST, just really seems like poor game design planning, and is way too much of a "luck" swing for me to like it. It doesn't even look intentional. It looks badly designed.

I agree with you about tedium, B. R. and I don't ascend all games (unless it's a role or conduct I've never done). The endgame in vanilla is incredibly un-fun and tedious. It's not interesting, has no good treasure and poses very little risk for someone with a wand of wishing.

I would instead design the game to have the wand of wishing much later as it makes the game too easy. I'd make the treasure in the castle instead a wand of polymorph, a magic lamp, scrolls, or full of dragons (which would produce a ton more scales).

Since I like to be a melee type, if there's no altar by level 10, my goose is pretty much cooked, unless I'm playing rogue or ranger or Samurai that has incredibly good missile weapons, or a powerful spellcaster such as monk or wizard. I have ascended people by not having an altar and getting blessed scrolls of enchant weapon early game and getting something to expert. Only did that a few times, scrolls of enchant weapon are also rare and hard to bless if you don't have holy water from an altar.

I mean, it's really all about the altar, isn't it. I don't think there's any point denying it anymore.

-Chris

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
[Altar-centered strategies vs. alternatives]

Post by Chris Bowers
However other strategies are SLOW. They are very, very, very tedious and
slow. There are missile weapons. So is running away each time there is a
hard monster to heal up. So is the use of spells. So is engraving
elbereth on every square you walk on, (or using it very frequently). So
is very cautiously hiding behind your pet and having it take all the
damage. So is picking up every single piece of armor in the mines
dragging it to an altar and testing it.

The flexibility of possible strategies and sometimes severe differences
between them are the most important source of the fun derived from the
game for many players, I think. Maybe not for you. - As of yet. In a couple
of years you may think otherwise. ;-)
A guaranteed early (co-aligned) altar would make the game much more
predictable. But I (obviously) have a completely different approach to
the game. While you try to win it fast and often, I don't really care
about ascending, at all. I usually abandon (#quit) a character, when
it is satisfactorily well-equipped to make ascension highly likely.
Now and then I also ascend characters. But the time between finishing
most of the preparation and ascension is tedious for /me/. ;-)

Post by Chris Bowers
Do you want to walk around and pick up missile weapons every second of the
game?

Use autopickup to /only/ pick up specifically named items and name your
quiver content (and maybe other missiles and throwing weapons), accordingly.
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Autopickup_exception
You still have to "walk around" for the pickup, though... ;-)
BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Chris Bowers
So, really it's just the more rare games where you don't have access
to an altar in the early game, and those games are really, really a
whole lot more difficult.

I don't want to comment each paragraph but also think I can concentrate
on this one that implies a lot and which shows a lot differences to my
experience.

The difficulty of any specific game and fate of death or life is not
that black/white. For example I can easily lead a dwarven Valkyrie to
the Castle without need for an altar or artifact. I have problems with
that goal if I play a gnomish healer. With the latter I might not even
reach dlvl:4. With an altar some characters may camp to enhance their
survival chance, others suffer from other side effects (like nutrition).
In other words; an altar is one factor that might help a lot - there's
no disagreement about the immense boon it may have. But it's neither
necessary (depending on class played) nor it's a guarantee to survive
longer. - I wonder; haven't you ever experienced that just the moment
you've got an artifact - a wimpy or good one, either way - you needed
a prayer because of an ambush (or need of food, or ...), for example?

I notice on many topics (from the past) your enthusiasm; I seem to
recall rants on Mjollnir, priests and holy water, altars, and more.
And all that lead you to a "black/white" appraisal in every case.
I'm fine with that. But I prefer (to the degree my expertise allows)
to consider all factors together and try not to make decisions based
on single/few factor projections.

Janis

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Chris Bowers
Game design-wise, I would simply have a dungeon branch with a
guaranteed altar

Like in Slashem. (Just recently I lost two excellent characters on
that level.)

Post by Chris Bowers
at the end and something difficult guarding it. It's
a good reward.

This may be a problem; we want the artifact to enhance our chances
but need a good "problem solver" to handle the "difficult guard"?

Post by Chris Bowers
Since I like to be a melee type,

This explains (at least a bit) your focus on artifacts (in Nethack;
in Slashem you'd probably be disappointed, at least if playing a
Neutral character, where there's a lot artifact armor you may get
instead of a weapon).

Post by Chris Bowers
[...]
I mean, it's really all about the altar, isn't it. I don't think
there's any point denying it anymore.

I think this is addressed in my other recent post.

Janis

[Chris Bowers]

Post by Janis Papanagnou
The difficulty of any specific game and fate of death or life is not
that black/white. For example I can easily lead a dwarven Valkyrie to
the Castle without need for an altar or artifact. I have problems with
that goal if I play a gnomish healer. With the latter I might not even
reach dlvl:4. With an altar some characters may camp to enhance their
survival chance, others suffer from other side effects (like nutrition).
In other words; an altar is one factor that might help a lot - there's
no disagreement about the immense boon it may have. But it's neither
necessary (depending on class played) nor it's a guarantee to survive
longer. - I wonder; haven't you ever experienced that just the moment
you've got an artifact - a wimpy or good one, either way - you needed
a prayer because of an ambush (or need of food, or ...), for example?

I mean, obviously very strong classes that start with 18s in physical stats, or characters that start out with extremely strong other skills (monks hand to hand and spells, wizard strong spells) can certainly survive without an altar. I can do it with priest because he starts with holy water, which allows him to bless scrolls of enchant weapon that he can price ID early in the game. This gives him a +5 or so mace on expert, which is the same boon basically as an unenchanted artifact weapon.

I don't believe I ever said that an altar is a survival guarantee, just that it GREATLY increases the chance of survival. Have I died after getting a really great artifact weapon? Sure. We all have. For me, more often it's because of stupidity, which has nothing to do with game difficulty. Or it could be from random unforseeable chance, such as a polymorph trap that creates a lich, and in turn gets you surrounded (I would call that an "unforced error."). Another one is poison resistance. You have your lovely artifact weapon, but you get poisoned by an arrow: instakill!

However, as you point out, the weaker the class is, the MORE IMPORTANT the altar and that artifact weapon become. For my tourist to find an altar on level one is an INCREDIBLE power shift. For a valkyrie with 18 in all physical stats, it's still a bump up, but for the tourist it's literally going from running away to confidently fighting things.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
I seem to
recall rants on Mjollnir, priests and holy water, altars, and more.
And all that lead you to a "black/white" appraisal in every case.
I'm fine with that. But I prefer (to the degree my expertise allows)
to consider all factors together and try not to make decisions based
on single/few factor projections.

I understand that there are many factors in nethack. For instance a player who finds gauntlets of power is likely already doing damage close to that of an artifact weapon. What if they find or can easily create a stack of blessed gain ability potions? The same thing.

But the point is to analyze so that you can see A FACTOR, that is an important factor that will boost your survival rate.

Greyswandir, for a long time was lauded as "the best" artifact weapon, and, as we've discussed here, that opinion is formed from inexperience. Greyswandir is the highest damage artifact in the game WHEN FULLY ENCHANTED.

However Mjollnir is the highest damage artifact in the game WHEN UNENCHANTED.

This means that Mjollnir is better in the early game and Greyswandir better in the middle and especially late game. But the thing is that the early game is when you really need to survive and get over the damage hump so that you can kill most monsters easily. Mjollnir is better for that. The boons that Greyswandir produces in the late game might not be relevant at all after a wand of wishing and after you make your AC -40 or so.

This analysis allows you to see correct decisions, just as this analysis of altars also allows you to see correct decisions. Not decisions that will GUARANTEE survival in nethack (nothing will). But it allows you to make A BETTER PLAY.

If you ever come upon an altar, you should do everything you can to obtain an artifact weapon from it right away. You shouldn't "wait to do that later". That's an error and one that I've made a lot. By understanding the importance of an altar and an artifact weapon and making that your focus, you increase your survivability a lot. Your entire focus should FIRST be to get a sacrifice gift. If you don't have enough food to do it, that should be your primary goal. Not "let's see what's in minetown", or "lets explore deeper in the main dungeon". If you have sufficient food and level 3 and can sacrifice but decide not to and do something else: you've made a play error. A very clear one. And I didn't know that even after years of playing.

-Chris

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Chris Bowers
Game design-wise, I would simply have a dungeon branch with a
guaranteed altar

Like in Slashem. (Just recently I lost two excellent characters on
that level.)

Post by Chris Bowers
at the end and something difficult guarding it. It's
a good reward.

This may be a problem; we want the artifact to enhance our chances
but need a good "problem solver" to handle the "difficult guard"?

Post by Chris Bowers
Since I like to be a melee type,

This explains (at least a bit) your focus on artifacts (in Nethack;
in Slashem you'd probably be disappointed, at least if playing a
Neutral character, where there's a lot artifact armor you may get
instead of a weapon).

Post by Chris Bowers
[...]
I mean, it's really all about the altar, isn't it. I don't think
there's any point denying it anymore.

I think this is addressed in my other recent post.
Janis

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

Post by Chris Bowers
I mean, obviously very strong classes that start with 18s in physical
stats, or characters that start out with extremely strong other skills
(monks hand to hand and spells, wizard strong spells) can certainly
survive without an altar.

With classes (or just characters) starting weak, it is important to
constantly exercise (and not abuse) strength. Maybe it conflicts with
your tendency to fast-forward, but I usually use (nearly) every bolder
in early game for some "push-ups". This way, even weak characters get
to (around) strength 18 quickly. (Afterwards, it isn't really worth that
specific effort. Then, other means of increasing strength are required.)

It is necessary to embed the strength-exercises in a general training
program, though. Only training strength may result in loosing dexterity,
for instance.

BeAr

[Chris Bowers]

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

Post by Chris Bowers
I mean, obviously very strong classes that start with 18s in physical
stats, or characters that start out with extremely strong other skills
(monks hand to hand and spells, wizard strong spells) can certainly
survive without an altar.

With classes (or just characters) starting weak, it is important to
constantly exercise (and not abuse) strength. Maybe it conflicts with
your tendency to fast-forward, but I usually use (nearly) every bolder
in early game for some "push-ups". This way, even weak characters get
to (around) strength 18 quickly. (Afterwards, it isn't really worth that
specific effort. Then, other means of increasing strength are required.)
It is necessary to embed the strength-exercises in a general training
program, though. Only training strength may result in loosing dexterity,
for instance.
BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

A very good hint.

Perhaps for weaker classes the route should be to sokoban first in order to get boulders to push and food. It makes sense as the food also aids you if you are to find an altar.

Seems like almost all weaker classes should head to sokoban first. Food, not as dangerous as the mines, and boulders to push to increase stats. For weaker roles maybe the top levels of sokoban are off limits.

-Chris

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

On Thu, 4 Aug 2022 15:58:47 -0700 (PDT), Chris Bowers wrote:

[exercising (esp. strength)]

Post by Chris Bowers
A very good hint.
Perhaps for weaker classes the route should be to sokoban first in order
to get boulders to push and food.

Sokoban is (usually) too far down. Weak characters, IMHO, should stick
with the first couple of levels and mine level 1 for quite some time.

Apart from this, Sokoban usually only provides 1 or 2 strength points out
of the exercise, because attribute adjustments only occur every couple of
hundred steps. Steady, continuous exercise is more important and effective
than any single huge effort. - Like in real life... ;-)

BeAr

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Chris Bowers
But, to be honest it's just all about the Altar.
There's a guaranteed Altar in minetown. [...] You CAN use wands
outside the altar to kill the priest. Real risky though!

The only time I tackle that priest is when I have a powerful pet
that does the dirty job for me. This can (early game) typically
only be achieved if you stumble across a polymorph-trap (in the
mines' deeper levels) and have MR or more likely a magic whistle.

Post by Chris Bowers
They say that you should go to sokobon to get food to sacrifice.

It depends on the role. Generally I'd rather say that you should
(before altar camping) strive for Sokoban to get nutritious food.
A couple classes start the game already with enough food.

Post by Chris Bowers
This
usually isn't true though. Exploring the first few levels of the
dungeon may provide enough food that at a low level (3 or 4) [...]

Usually not (in my games). Depending on initial food equipment
I have to find enough monsters (that I can kill and are edible
and nutritious enough), typically, or strive to places where
there's food guaranteed.

Post by Chris Bowers
I think pretty much the Altar is the whole key to the game, and if
not the altar, a way to get an artifact weapon (such as dipping for
lawfuls).

An early artifact is typically a game changer. An early altar
therefore too (also for the other purposes of altars).

Post by Chris Bowers
Looking back on past failed games nearly every one had the same
problem: lack of a co-aligned altar or lack of a way to get an
artifact weapon (or both).

I think this is a very simplified view. Even if you are not a
good player and need every source of lucky findings and events
you should not make that a principle and count on those.

I suggest build a mindset to try winning every game by thinking
about the concrete death reasons in your games and when you get
in situations derive solutions from your thoughts and insights.

Post by Chris Bowers
The artifact weapon is an absolute fulcrum of the game. [...]

I would formulate it as "The artifact weapon from the subset of
*good* artifacts ..."; there are many quite useless artifacts.

Post by Chris Bowers
So, the... kind of annoying thing about it is that really what's
you win. Games without one: you lose.

Of course this is not true, in many ways. But it's true that your
chances increase with an altar because it opens several game-play
options for the player. (You've enumerated a couple.)

Post by Chris Bowers
Now that's not every single game. Once I found a fully charged WoW!
on the 2nd level of the gnomish mines. That was a fun and very easy
ascension.

That's also another mindset (and also experience) issue; if you
can win only with wishes and/or altars it says something about
your proficiency as well, not only about the game design. For
other players the fun may be to solve interesting or difficult
situations (and learn from them), and they may get bored if they
start with many wishes.

Post by Chris Bowers
But the real deal, the real thing I think needs to be faced is that
an altar and all it's advantages (luck, holy water, curse testing,
artifact weapon generating), is such a super boon, that the fact that
they are random makes the difficulty of the game (IMHO) depend a lot
on luck.

I agree.

In Slashem, just for an alternative and for comparison, it's a
bit different. I have got the feeling (not sure, though) that
there are significantly less altars (and also temples) randomly
created. But there are a few guaranteed ones as compensation,
though at level depths that you have to be able to reach alive
in the first place. (Lawful quest @dlvl:15-19 has a co-aligned
altar, for example.) Also, if you kill the temple priest at the
mine town you may not find another priest to donate for divine
protection.

Post by Chris Bowers
It seems like players are resistant to this conclusion, that really
the cause and effect going on is: altar=very likely ascension. No
altar= difficult ascension or possibly death.

I've never heard anyone claiming that an early altar would not
increase your chances to win. Where did you get that impression
from?

Janis