recent sokoban fail on top floor

[Julian]

I made a comment about every ascension having a successful Sokoban run or something, but I see now that was not realistic. You'll either pass or fail at sokoban and can't sit around dawdling if it's a fail. People would quit the game with a Sokoban screw up and that's not how it is or should be.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Julian
I made a comment about every ascension having a successful Sokoban
run or something, but I see now that was not realistic. You'll
either pass or fail at sokoban and can't sit around dawdling if it's
a fail. People would quit the game with a Sokoban screw up and
that's not how it is or should be.

Not sure I understand you here, probably because it's unclear to me
what success or fail means in your post; is failing dying, or is it
not reaching the prize, say by a boulder management issue? There's
certainly a third option - been there; just skip Sokoban. I've done
that in the past when I already had all the possible Sokoban prizes
from other sources. Usually I nonetheless do a couple levels to get
the guaranteed wands, rings, or food, but don't finish the builders
puzzle on the final zoo level. I had also never quited the game only
because of any (non-lethal) Sokoban mishap. Sokoban is an option,
it's not mandatory (as opposed to, say, the quest). You can also
"sit around dawdling" if you've done a mishap; say you explored a
lot of the dungeons and yet don't have a necessary item to continue
the game, but you might get it as prize. Then you could wait until
you have all you need (say from random monster death-drops) to fix
the mischief and finish Sokoban. A situation that may happen in many
ways, when you're getting deadlocked at some stage of a game.

But what is your point when you say "that's not how it is or should
be."; how should it be in your opinion?

Janis

[Julian]

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Julian
I made a comment about every ascension having a successful Sokoban
run or something, but I see now that was not realistic. You'll
either pass or fail at sokoban and can't sit around dawdling if it's
a fail. People would quit the game with a Sokoban screw up and
that's not how it is or should be.

Not sure I understand you here, probably because it's unclear to me
what success or fail means in your post; is failing dying, or is it
not reaching the prize, say by a boulder management issue? There's
certainly a third option - been there; just skip Sokoban. I've done
that in the past when I already had all the possible Sokoban prizes
from other sources. Usually I nonetheless do a couple levels to get
the guaranteed wands, rings, or food, but don't finish the builders
puzzle on the final zoo level. I had also never quited the game only
because of any (non-lethal) Sokoban mishap. Sokoban is an option,
it's not mandatory (as opposed to, say, the quest). You can also
"sit around dawdling" if you've done a mishap; say you explored a
lot of the dungeons and yet don't have a necessary item to continue
the game, but you might get it as prize. Then you could wait until
you have all you need (say from random monster death-drops) to fix
the mischief and finish Sokoban. A situation that may happen in many
ways, when you're getting deadlocked at some stage of a game.
But what is your point when you say "that's not how it is or should
be."; how should it be in your opinion?
Janis

Yeah I hadn't really thought about waiting for materials to fix the problem.

It should be diggable walls.

[Janis Papanagnou]

[Sokoban issues]

Post by Julian

Post by Janis Papanagnou
But what is your point when you say "that's not how it is or should
be."; how should it be in your opinion?

Yeah I hadn't really thought about waiting for materials to fix the problem.

But to be clear, it's usually a boring process - and I understand if
folks are tempted to #quit in such a case.

On the other hand, getting a pick-axe (for the obstructing boulders)
or use the guaranteed scrolls of earth (for then missing boulders to
complete the task) is not that difficult and certainly less boring,
if you are willing to accept the luck penalties.

Post by Julian
It should be diggable walls.

But that would then be too easy, if not trivial, don't you think?

Janis

[Yosemite Sam]

Post by Janis Papanagnou
[Sokoban issues]

Post by Julian

Post by Janis Papanagnou
But what is your point when you say "that's not how it is or should
be."; how should it be in your opinion?

Yeah I hadn't really thought about waiting for materials to fix the problem.

But to be clear, it's usually a boring process - and I understand if
folks are tempted to #quit in such a case.

I sense a spoiler in there somewhere.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
On the other hand, getting a pick-axe (for the obstructing boulders)
or use the guaranteed scrolls of earth (for then missing boulders to
complete the task) is not that difficult and certainly less boring,
if you are willing to accept the luck penalties.

Yes a pickaxe is a good idea. I was about to drop all my gear and squeeze in to push them around, but destruction is more cavalier. It's pleasing to smash the boulders.

Post by Janis Papanagnou

Post by Julian
It should be diggable walls.

But that would then be too easy, if not trivial, don't you think?

Maybe so.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Yosemite Sam

[boulder mishaps in Sokoban]

Yes a pickaxe is a good idea. I was about to drop all my gear and
squeeze in to push them around, but destruction is more cavalier.
It's pleasing to smash the boulders.

Squeezing is less resource consuming, but it's not always possible
to solve all boulders problems, depending on the topology.

Another option I had applied in the past was teleporting boulders
away; a bit random in the outcome but a feasible option that - I
think - did not have the reduced luck effect.

It's good that there's many tricks possible for various situations
with different preconditions and different specific drawbacks!

Janis

[Julian]

Post by Janis Papanagnou

[boulder mishaps in Sokoban]

Yes a pickaxe is a good idea. I was about to drop all my gear and
squeeze in to push them around, but destruction is more cavalier.
It's pleasing to smash the boulders.

Squeezing is less resource consuming, but it's not always possible
to solve all boulders problems, depending on the topology.
Another option I had applied in the past was teleporting boulders
away; a bit random in the outcome but a feasible option that - I
think - did not have the reduced luck effect.
It's good that there's many tricks possible for various situations
with different preconditions and different specific drawbacks!
Janis

From what I saw, squeezing should do the trick. However, I will go through my wands before I go back there.

[Julian]

Post by Janis Papanagnou

[boulder mishaps in Sokoban]

Yes a pickaxe is a good idea. I was about to drop all my gear and
squeeze in to push them around, but destruction is more cavalier.
It's pleasing to smash the boulders.

Squeezing is less resource consuming, but it's not always possible
to solve all boulders problems, depending on the topology.
Another option I had applied in the past was teleporting boulders
away; a bit random in the outcome but a feasible option that - I
think - did not have the reduced luck effect.
It's good that there's many tricks possible for various situations
with different preconditions and different specific drawbacks!
Janis

She barely made it past the new moon. Dipped about 8 times during new moon, and ended up with a cursed thoroughly rusty corroded long sword. Was dipping again at the oracle fountains and a water demon summoned Yeenoghu. 3 teleport scrolls in my inv, but those don't help against those guys.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Julian
She barely made it past the new moon. Dipped about 8 times during
new moon, and ended up with a cursed thoroughly rusty corroded long
sword. Was dipping again at the oracle fountains and a water demon
summoned Yeenoghu. 3 teleport scrolls in my inv, but those don't
help against those guys.

Gating in Gehennom's _covetous_ demons to the upper levels feels wrong
to me. But it is as it is (or as it always was - nothing has changed
here for long time). Development seems to strive towards taking options
away from players and making it more difficult instead of rethinking
about balancing such things a bit. I wish you better luck for your next
game.

Janis

[B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson]

Post by Julian
Was dipping again at the oracle fountains and a water demon summoned
Yeenoghu. 3 teleport scrolls in my inv, but those don't help against
those guys.

Always try to fight early water demons from afar. (Ranged attacks with
missiles, wands, and spells.) Water demons only summon other demons
during hand-to-hand combat.

BeAr

[Pat Rankin]

She barely made it past the new moon. Dipped about 8 times during
new moon, and ended up with a cursed thoroughly rusty corroded
long sword. Was dipping again at the oracle fountains and a water
demon summoned Yeenoghu. 3 teleport scrolls in my inv, but those
don't help against those guys.

Playing during the three or four day period classified by
the game as a full moon positively affects in-game Luck.
Playing on Friday the 13th negatively affects in-game Luck.
Playing during the three or four day period classified as a
new moon has no effect on in-game Luck.

All three external 'events' are based on when you started
the current play session. If you save and restore they will
be rechecked. If you start before a date-based event and
continue play into it, it won't be rechecked and won't matter.
If you start during an event and continue after it would have
expired, that also won't be rechecked and won't expire in the
game until save and restore.

The game also has nighttime and midnight-to-1AM 'events'.
Those are rechecked dynamically as you play whenever a
situation where they matter occurs. However, they are
based on the computer's idea of local time which might
differ from actual local time depending upon how the
computer's clock is set or upon location of a remote server
when applicable. Nighttime isn't seasonal; it's an arbitrary
period starting at 10PM (inclusive) and ending by 6AM
(exclusive; in other words, 5:59:59.99).

[End of new moon vs Excalibur digression....]

In-game Luck is not a factor in converting a long sword into
Excalibur anyway. You need to be at least experience level 5
and pass a 1-in-6 chance (completely random, not biased by
in-game Luck). If you pass that, you also need to be lawful.

If you dip a long sword when your level is too low or if you
fail the 1-in-6 chance or if Excalibur already exists, you will
get the water damage effect.

Failing a 1-in-6 chance 8 times is unlikely but not impossible.
Another possibility is that Excalibur was in a bones level you
loaded (maybe without being aware) so already existed.

[Yosemite Sam]

Post by Pat Rankin

She barely made it past the new moon. Dipped about 8 times during
new moon, and ended up with a cursed thoroughly rusty corroded
long sword. Was dipping again at the oracle fountains and a water
demon summoned Yeenoghu. 3 teleport scrolls in my inv, but those
don't help against those guys.

Playing during the three or four day period classified by
the game as a full moon positively affects in-game Luck.
Playing on Friday the 13th negatively affects in-game Luck.
Playing during the three or four day period classified as a
new moon has no effect on in-game Luck.

Experience speaks otherwise. I've played plenty of times during the new moon and while not every roll of the RNG is a fail, most are. Monsters steal my katana, a barbarian gets drawn and quartered by a mind flayer, most heroes don't make it past 4th floor... If it is as you say, then what exactly is the penalty for playing during the new moon? There is a blatant message, "be careful, new moon." I doubt they put up the message just for kicks.

[Janis Papanagnou]

Post by Yosemite Sam

Post by Pat Rankin

She barely made it past the new moon. Dipped about 8 times during
new moon, and ended up with a cursed thoroughly rusty corroded
long sword. Was dipping again at the oracle fountains and a water
demon summoned Yeenoghu. 3 teleport scrolls in my inv, but those
don't help against those guys.

Playing during the three or four day period classified by
the game as a full moon positively affects in-game Luck.
Playing on Friday the 13th negatively affects in-game Luck.
Playing during the three or four day period classified as a
new moon has no effect on in-game Luck.

Experience speaks otherwise. I've played plenty of times during the
new moon and while not every roll of the RNG is a fail, most are.

I observed in the past accumulation of deaths during full moon (while
"being lucky today"); I suppose it's a very subjective observation.

Post by Yosemite Sam
Monsters steal my katana, a barbarian gets drawn and quartered by a
mind flayer, most heroes don't make it past 4th floor...

Could it be that the [intended?] psychological effect of that message
is just working and results in sloppy or less attentive play?

Post by Yosemite Sam
If it is as you say, then what exactly is the penalty for playing
during the new moon?

According to the Wiki, it has effects on cockatrice attacks.

Post by Yosemite Sam
There is a blatant message, "be careful, new moon." I doubt they put
up the message just for kicks.

The Wiki says: "Contrary to popular belief, Luck is not decreased.",
which is what Pat said (and there's a good chance that Pat knows that
from own development insights).

Happy hacking and be careful, whatever the moon or the stars say! ;-)

Janis

[Pat Rankin]

[...]

Post by Yosemite Sam

Post by Pat Rankin
Playing during the three or four day period classified as a
new moon has no effect on in-game Luck.

[...]
If it is as you say,

It is.

Post by Yosemite Sam
then what exactly is the penalty for playing during the new moon?

When a cockatrice or chickatrice successfully bites you, there
is a 1-in-3 chance that you will "hear hissing". When that occurs,
there is normally a 1-in-10 chance that you'll start turning into
stone. During a new moon, the 1-in-10 chance is skipped and
you will always start turning into stone (when the hiss happens,
so not every time you're bitten).

In 3.6.x and earlier, even that effect of new moon is negated if
you are carrying a lizard corpse in inventory. In to-be-3.7, this
exception has been removed. You'll have to actually take a
bite of the corpse (or resort to some other method of curing
the petrification countdown) to avoid turning to stone. (It's a
minor change unless you're attempting foodless conduct. Odds
of being interrupted are high so you'll almost always be left
with a partially-eaten lizard corpse which can be used again.)

Post by Yosemite Sam
There is a blatant message, "be careful, new moon." I doubt they
put up the message just for kicks.

That is one of only three places in the whole program where
new moon matters: the exaggerated warning at start of a new
game (or when restoring an old game--it's the same message),
during the cockatrice bite handling, and for to-be-3.7, in the
phase-of-moon/date/time event description(s) feedback added
to ^X and end-of-game disclosure.

[Benjamin Heiligenbrunner]

Post by Pat Rankin
[...]

Post by Yosemite Sam

Post by Pat Rankin
Playing during the three or four day period classified as a
new moon has no effect on in-game Luck.

[...]
If it is as you say,

It is.

Post by Yosemite Sam
then what exactly is the penalty for playing during the new moon?

When a cockatrice or chickatrice successfully bites you, there
is a 1-in-3 chance that you will "hear hissing". When that occurs,
there is normally a 1-in-10 chance that you'll start turning into
stone. During a new moon, the 1-in-10 chance is skipped and
you will always start turning into stone (when the hiss happens,
so not every time you're bitten).
In 3.6.x and earlier, even that effect of new moon is negated if
you are carrying a lizard corpse in inventory. In to-be-3.7, this
exception has been removed. You'll have to actually take a
bite of the corpse (or resort to some other method of curing
the petrification countdown) to avoid turning to stone. (It's a
minor change unless you're attempting foodless conduct. Odds
of being interrupted are high so you'll almost always be left
with a partially-eaten lizard corpse which can be used again.)

BTW, shouldn't there be a way to enforce this? E.g. by a command n1e,
meaning "eat for at most one turn"?

Post by Pat Rankin

Post by Yosemite Sam
There is a blatant message, "be careful, new moon." I doubt they
put up the message just for kicks.

That is one of only three places in the whole program where
new moon matters: the exaggerated warning at start of a new
game (or when restoring an old game--it's the same message),
during the cockatrice bite handling, and for to-be-3.7, in the
phase-of-moon/date/time event description(s) feedback added
to ^X and end-of-game disclosure.

Benjamin