[dnethack] Ridiculous wand enchantments?

Post by Janis Papanagnou
I've just identified a couple wands in my inventory; not sure where I
K - a wand of magic missile (0:32) {7}
P - a wand of magic missile (0:23) {7}
S - a wand of magic missile (0:108) {7}
Are these enchantments normal in dNethack?

Magic missile wands were recently changed in dNetHack to have ~100
charges (10x normal) to have them be more useful in the early game
(because you can spam them). Unfortunately this had some bad side
effects (incantifiers get loads of nutrition by eating them, explosions
do loads of damage) so in the next version (devel-3.22.1) they have been
changed to instead have a 1/10 chance of not using a charge.

You should be very careful not to carry these wands in open inventory
unless you have shock resistance, as each charge lost in a wand
explosion does 1d6 shock damage to you, and there is a 1/10 chance of
losing each charge. This means that you may take up to 108d6 shock
damage from that 108-charge wand (average of ~10d6), which will likely
kill you.

Janis Papanagnou

2023-09-16 13:10:52 UTC

[ wands of magic missile ]
Are these enchantments normal in dNethack?

Magic missile wands were recently changed in dNetHack to have ~100
charges (10x normal) to have them be more useful in the early game
(because you can spam them). Unfortunately this had some bad side
effects (incantifiers get loads of nutrition by eating them, explosions
do loads of damage) so in the next version (devel-3.22.1) they have been
changed to instead have a 1/10 chance of not using a charge.
You should be very careful not to carry these wands in open inventory
unless you have shock resistance, as each charge lost in a wand
explosion does 1d6 shock damage to you, and there is a 1/10 chance of
losing each charge. This means that you may take up to 108d6 shock
damage from that 108-charge wand (average of ~10d6), which will likely
kill you.

Good to know. Meanwhile I am in an advanced game, still not shock
resistance (as far as I recall), and sometimes suffered from such
attacks. I cannot tell whether these wands got destroyed (I have
plenty of HPs to survive such HP-losses). I've got some sparkling
effect and suspected that some wands lots charges, but I may also
be mistaken here.

This variant still has a lot mysteries to me; like AC occasionally
dropping and restoring within a couple of turns. AC from donations
did not always provide a point despite a message that indicates to
do that. Also that a +4 armor type provides only 1 point more of
AC than the respective +1 armor (or some such) of the same type.
And my AC is generally not good despite some mithril and dragon
scaled pieces of armor. The artifact I got (The Lifehunt Scythe)
deals immense damage (60+) and kills most things in one turn. So
the Mjollnir that I found in a bones heap needs not be practiced;
well, its one-handedness would be an advantage, of course.

Not sure what to do with my lacking MR. Ludios had 2 gray dragons
but none (also other types) left scales. Should I wish for some?
(Playing a Half-dragon race I'm not sure what I can wear and what
I can't; I don't want to waste a wish.)

Janis

Janis Papanagnou

2023-09-16 13:13:09 UTC

[...] I've got some sparkling
effect and suspected that some wands lots charges, [...]

"[...] and suspected that some wands *lost* charges"

Janis

Ron Nazarov

2023-09-17 01:23:50 UTC

[ wands of magic missile ]
Are these enchantments normal in dNethack?

Magic missile wands were recently changed in dNetHack to have ~100
charges (10x normal) to have them be more useful in the early game
(because you can spam them). Unfortunately this had some bad side
effects (incantifiers get loads of nutrition by eating them, explosions
do loads of damage) so in the next version (devel-3.22.1) they have been
changed to instead have a 1/10 chance of not using a charge.
You should be very careful not to carry these wands in open inventory
unless you have shock resistance, as each charge lost in a wand
explosion does 1d6 shock damage to you, and there is a 1/10 chance of
losing each charge. This means that you may take up to 108d6 shock
damage from that 108-charge wand (average of ~10d6), which will likely
kill you.

Good to know. Meanwhile I am in an advanced game, still not shock
resistance (as far as I recall), and sometimes suffered from such
attacks. I cannot tell whether these wands got destroyed (I have
plenty of HPs to survive such HP-losses). I've got some sparkling
effect and suspected that some wands lots charges, but I may also
be mistaken here.
This variant still has a lot mysteries to me; like AC occasionally
dropping and restoring within a couple of turns. AC from donations
did not always provide a point despite a message that indicates to
do that. Also that a +4 armor type provides only 1 point more of
AC than the respective +1 armor (or some such) of the same type.
And my AC is generally not good despite some mithril and dragon
scaled pieces of armor. The artifact I got (The Lifehunt Scythe)
deals immense damage (60+) and kills most things in one turn. So
the Mjollnir that I found in a bones heap needs not be practiced;
well, its one-handedness would be an advantage, of course.

dNetHack splits AC (armour class) and DR (damage reduction). AC only
affects to-hit and DR reduces damage. DR is guaranteed up to 10 and
rolled after that, meaning that DR reduces damage by 10 + d(DR - 10).
There are three types of AC and DR: spiritual, natural, and armour, and
some types of attacks bypass certain types (touch attacks and
multidimensional things bypass AC/DR from armour but not spiritual and
natural). DR is per-slot and when you get hit a random slot is selected
for the attack. AC is not per-slot. Protection alternates between
giving AC and giving DR to all slots.

Monsters also no longer get the free +10 to-hit that they do in vanilla
NetHack: to compensate, small monsters get +2 to-hit and tiny monsters
get +5, and not all monsters (players too) have full BAB (+1 to-hit per
level). +3/4 to-hit and +1/2 to-hit per level are also possible, with
3/4 probably being more common. This means that it's generally possible
to get further in dNetHack with worse AC than in vanilla.

AC occasionally dropping and quickly restoring is caused by study, which
can be caused by several monster attacks (mostly gazes) as well as by
the Lifehunt Scythe. It increases AC and decreases DR by its amount,
causing you to take more damage, and wears off at a rate of one point
per turn. I think if you take extra damage because of it, it also gets
reduced by the amount of extra damage you took, but I'm not sure. The
Lifehunt Scythe studies your target by the amount of damage it takes, as
well as studying you (the wielder) by 1/4 of the damage.
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/DNetHack_artifacts#The_Lifehunt_Scythe has
a more detailed description of it. Two-handed weapons are also more
viable in dNetHack than in vanilla because they get double dbon from
strength.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Not sure what to do with my lacking MR. Ludios had 2 gray dragons
but none (also other types) left scales. Should I wish for some?
(Playing a Half-dragon race I'm not sure what I can wear and what
I can't; I don't want to waste a wish.)

Which chaos quest did you get (the Oracle can give you a hint)?
Half-dragons can wear any normal medium-sized armour (same as human),
however I would not recommend wishing for MR. 2/3 chaos quests
(chaos1/Chaos Temple and chaos3/Mordor do, chaos2/Mithardir doesn't)
have a slotless MR source at the end, and the high-caste Eladrin statue
traps at the end of the law quest (at the top of Oona's tower) have
guaranteed MR cloaks.

Also, if you are a Barbarian (as I think you are), the quest artifact
provides slotless MR, as well as extrinsic fire resistance, half spell
damage, drain resistance, and reflection. Thoth Amon isn't that hard
and I would recommend doing the quest as soon as possible.

Janis Papanagnou

2023-09-17 09:10:50 UTC

Post by Janis Papanagnou
This variant still has a lot mysteries to me;

[...]

dNetHack splits AC (armour class) and DR (damage reduction). [...]

Thanks for the detailed explanations.

Which chaos quest did you get (the Oracle can give you a hint)?
Half-dragons can wear any normal medium-sized armour (same as human),

Are dragon scales and armor normal sized? (I know I cannot wear the
wrappings from giant mummies.)

however I would not recommend wishing for MR. 2/3 chaos quests
(chaos1/Chaos Temple and chaos3/Mordor do, chaos2/Mithardir doesn't)
have a slotless MR source at the end, and the high-caste Eladrin statue
traps at the end of the law quest (at the top of Oona's tower) have
guaranteed MR cloaks.
Also, if you are a Barbarian (as I think you are), the quest artifact
provides slotless MR, as well as extrinsic fire resistance, half spell
damage, drain resistance, and reflection. Thoth Amon isn't that hard
and I would recommend doing the quest as soon as possible.

I've not yet reached any of the quests. I've done the orc variant of
mines-end (got the balrog figurine; might be useful?), and I've done
the Vlad branch in the mines, and of course Sokoban, and also Knox.

I fear polytraps destroying my armor but I have poly control (in my
bag; my nutrition demands seem to be high - an effect of my race? -
so I avoid rings). I also have got Nenya, but it doesn't seem to be
worth wearing (to avoid nutricion effects), since half-dragons do
spot monsters sufficiently early and water walking is also pointless
for a winged race with intrinsic flying.

I have a lot of types of amulets; against evil gaze(?), life saving,
and lately (the thing I am wearing) reflection. So my fear of wands
of death is now softened. (I met a lot monsters carrying such wands,
but it seems they don't zap them as liberally as in Nethack?)

I'm still unsure whether I should get (or whether it is possible in
the first place) dragon armor for better AC (or other properties).
With two magic lamps and some permanent candle there's some chance
for free wishes available.

Janis

Ron Nazarov

2023-09-17 13:27:09 UTC

Post by Janis Papanagnou
This variant still has a lot mysteries to me;

[...]

dNetHack splits AC (armour class) and DR (damage reduction). [...]

Thanks for the detailed explanations.

Which chaos quest did you get (the Oracle can give you a hint)?
Half-dragons can wear any normal medium-sized armour (same as human),

Are dragon scales and armor normal sized? (I know I cannot wear the
wrappings from giant mummies.)

Armour in dNetHack has a size and a shape. Not all monsters can wear
all types of armour: some don't have heads (MB_NOHEAD) and can't wear
helms (although they can still wear soft hats by just placing them on
top of their body), some don't have feet (missing MB_HAS_FEET for
animals or MB_NOFEET for everyone else), some don't have hands
(MB_NOHANDS), and some have hands but can't wear gloves (MB_NOGLOVES).

For shape:
- MB_ANIMAL = barded
- MB_SLITHY = tubular (shirts)/segmented
- MB_HUMANOID | MB_ANIMAL = centaur
- MB_HUMANOID | MB_SLITHY = snakeleg
- MB_ANIMAL | MB_SLITHY = snakeback
- MB_LONGHEAD = barded (helms)
- MB_LONGNECK = snakeneck (helms)
- MB_HUMANOID = normal/humanoid, not shown in description

Sizes are tiny, small, medium (generally not shown in description),
large, huge, gigantic. Dragon scales (not scale mail) can be worn by
mostly anyone regardless of size. You can resize armour to fit you or
another adjacent monster with an upgrade kit (which uses up the upgrade
kit). Weapons and tools also have sizes, and they can be wished for
(except for as artifacts) or found in monster starting inventories,
however cannot be resized in an upgrade kit (notdNetHack allows you to
resize tools, but dNetHack does not). Each size above medium adds +d2
to each damage die, and each size below subtracts -d2. Wielding weapons
that are too large for you incurs a to-hit penalty depending on the
difference between your size and the weapon's size, and also makes them
bimanual if they aren't already.

I would explore down to the quest portal and do the Barbarian quest as
soon as possible, then crown as soon as possible for permanent
intrinsics. The QA is really good and the nemesis isn't that strong
(although he does like to cast earthquake, nightmare, and destroy
weapon, so you should have a unicorn horn for dealing with nightmare and
either an artifact weapon or MR for dealing with destroy weapon). Based
on your ttyrec and the fact that you've done Vlad and Knox, you are
probably ready to do it. Note that your weapon (the Lifehunt Scythe) is
safe to enchant to +10 (from +9), despite what vibrations may indicate.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
I fear polytraps destroying my armor but I have poly control (in my
bag; my nutrition demands seem to be high - an effect of my race? -
so I avoid rings). I also have got Nenya, but it doesn't seem to be
worth wearing (to avoid nutricion effects), since half-dragons do
spot monsters sufficiently early and water walking is also pointless
for a winged race with intrinsic flying.

I looked at your ttyrec and you seem to be wearing a ring of alacrity.
This gives you very fast speed, but also causes extra nutrition usage as
a ring of regeneration or conflict. Nenya is a diamond ring (or silver
ring if diamond is polymorph) and probably one of the best artifacts
depending on the base type. What base type did you get?

Post by Janis Papanagnou
I have a lot of types of amulets; against evil gaze(?), life saving,
and lately (the thing I am wearing) reflection. So my fear of wands
of death is now softened. (I met a lot monsters carrying such wands,
but it seems they don't zap them as liberally as in Nethack?)

An amulet versus evil eyes protects versus all gaze attacks. It's
situationally useful if you are fighting a monster with an
annoying/dangerous gaze, but life-saving is generally better.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
I'm still unsure whether I should get (or whether it is possible in
the first place) dragon armor for better AC (or other properties).
With two magic lamps and some permanent candle there's some chance
for free wishes available.

Dragon scale mail wears 150aum and doesn't provide the best protection,
although it does provide useful extrinsics. I would probably wear the
crystal plate mail from Vlad's tower, if I had the carrycap. It's
170aum (more than DSM but much less than in vanilla) and provides more
protection.

If you really want to wish for better armour, you can wish for a
"blessed figurine of a dokkalfar eternal matriarch". Make sure to apply
it while standing on a burnt Circle of Acheron ward (or another that
they respect, I forgot which) and on the upstairs, in case it comes out
hostile. They are covetous, can dig through walls, resist slashing and
piercing weapons, have two 6d8 disenchant weapon attacks, a 4d6 drain
life touch, a 4d6 cold touch, and magic spellcasting, but they can't
harm you while you're standing on the ward (look it up with /?dokkalfar
eternal matriarch for more details). If it comes out tame, you can
#loot it for a nice set of blessed fixed +5 mithril droven armour (with
a blessed +9 mithril droven plate mail, a blessed +5 fireproof plain
dress, and a blessed +5 fireproof cloak of magic resistance, and a
blessed +9 wrathful high-elven warsword). It also makes a nice pet, but
it is traitorous so don't have less than half HP around it. If you
don't want it, you can abandon it on the first level of sokoban (and
tell it to #wait) and it won't lose tameness. If it comes out hostile,
you likely won't be able to harm it enough to kill it before it runs
away and heals unless you have a good source of blunt damage. It's
probably possible to set something up in sokoban so it can't warp away,
run away, or attack you, and you can just hit it until it dies. Maybe
stand on the upstairs on a burnt ward on the first level, with a boulder
blocking the corridor and a square free for the DEM between you and the
boulder, like this:

------ -----
|....| |...|
|....----...|
|...........|
|..--->---..|
|---------.---
|...0L@|.....|
|..----|.....|
--.| |.....|
|.-----.....|
|...........|
|..----------
----

(@ = you standing on a burnt Circle of Acheron, L = dokkalfar eternal
matriarch, 0 = boulder. I tested this in wizmode and it seems to work.)

Janis Papanagnou

2023-09-17 17:20:36 UTC

[ upgrade kit ]

I found a couple in the mines but didn't know what they are for and
just ignored them all.

I would explore down to the quest portal and do the Barbarian quest as
soon as possible, then crown as soon as possible for permanent
intrinsics.

Meanwhile I seem to have all (five) basis intrinsics. (I'm not sure,
though, whether they wear off or are permanent in dNethack.)

[...] Note that your weapon (the Lifehunt Scythe) is
safe to enchant to +10 (from +9), despite what vibrations may indicate.

Yeah, I've also read about it - only that I'm paranoid and abstained
enchanting it beyond +6 yet, as it's already very effective. :-)

I looked at your ttyrec and you seem to be wearing a ring of alacrity.
This gives you very fast speed, but also causes extra nutrition usage as
a ring of regeneration or conflict.

Ah, good to know!

Nenya is a diamond ring (or silver
ring if diamond is polymorph) and probably one of the best artifacts
depending on the base type. What base type did you get?

The game says: "Nenya [unaligned ring of see invisible]" and
see invisible is a diamond ring.

Re: "one of the best artifacts"? (I don't get it or missed it.) Why?

BTW, I found it somewhere lying around on the floor. (Is there a
guaranteed place to find it or standard procedure to obtain it?)

An amulet versus evil eyes protects versus all gaze attacks. It's
situationally useful if you are fighting a monster with an
annoying/dangerous gaze, but life-saving is generally better.

I was wearing life-saving a while to prevent unexpected deaths. When
I found reflection I decided to switch. "Now I'm feeling safe enough."
(Famous last words!)

Dragon scale mail wears 150aum and doesn't provide the best protection,
although it does provide useful extrinsics.

Oh, that's heavy (it was 50 in vanilla, IIRC). At the moment I am
wearing an elven mithril coat (weight 20), a dwarven mithril cloak
that I found had shown the same AC.

I would probably wear the
crystal plate mail from Vlad's tower, if I had the carrycap. It's
170aum (more than DSM but much less than in vanilla) and provides more
protection.

I am used to ignore this type of armor, so I left it unexplored in
Vlad's tower. (So I should probably return to get it?) Still, if I
compare my weight 20 mithril armor with a 150 or 170 item, hmm...

[ "dokkalfar eternal matriarch" ]

Hmm, okay, this procedure sounds very interesting but the opponent
doesn't sound right for a "101" player candidate. :-)

Janis

Ron Nazarov

2023-09-17 19:50:20 UTC

[ upgrade kit ]

I found a couple in the mines but didn't know what they are for and
just ignored them all.

I would explore down to the quest portal and do the Barbarian quest as
soon as possible, then crown as soon as possible for permanent
intrinsics.

Meanwhile I seem to have all (five) basis intrinsics. (I'm not sure,
though, whether they wear off or are permanent in dNethack.)

They will wear off eventually. I think how long that will take depends
on what monster you got it from. Intrinsics from crowning are permanent
and cannot be stolen (gremlins and other intrinsic-thieves can only
steal temporary intrinsics).

[...] Note that your weapon (the Lifehunt Scythe) is
safe to enchant to +10 (from +9), despite what vibrations may indicate.

Yeah, I've also read about it - only that I'm paranoid and abstained
enchanting it beyond +6 yet, as it's already very effective. :-)

Overenchanting artifacts is safe in dNetHack: instead of getting
destroyed, it will just revert to +0.

I looked at your ttyrec and you seem to be wearing a ring of alacrity.
This gives you very fast speed, but also causes extra nutrition usage as
a ring of regeneration or conflict.

Ah, good to know!

Nenya is a diamond ring (or silver
ring if diamond is polymorph) and probably one of the best artifacts
depending on the base type. What base type did you get?

The game says: "Nenya [unaligned ring of see invisible]" and
see invisible is a diamond ring.

That's quite a useless base type since it provides monster detection
(intrinsic see invisible has a limited range in dNetHack so generally it
has some use), but not an especially bad one (like hunger or aggravate
monster).

Post by Janis Papanagnou
Re: "one of the best artifacts"? (I don't get it or missed it.) Why?

https://github.com/Chris-plus-alphanumericgibberish/dNAO/commit/32793670fbe600d2e7b3ad36c1d2b6dfc04c197e
describes its effects in more detail, but basically: monster detection,
waterproofing, water walking, extra eregen, extra AC, +1d20 silver
damage to all (including thrown weapons) attacks, and the ability to
cast divination spells (such as identify and magic mapping) at 0% fail
is very nice. The geyser clerical monster spell (and some other
attacks) can water-damage your inventory, but a greased or oilskin cloak
will protect your entire inventory (although grease can of course wear
off).

Post by Janis Papanagnou
BTW, I found it somewhere lying around on the floor. (Is there a
guaranteed place to find it or standard procedure to obtain it?)

No, but random artifact generation doesn't depend on the artifacts
already generated, and dNetHack has many more artifacts and side
branches, so you will probably see randomly generated artifacts more
often than in vanilla.

An amulet versus evil eyes protects versus all gaze attacks. It's
situationally useful if you are fighting a monster with an
annoying/dangerous gaze, but life-saving is generally better.

I was wearing life-saving a while to prevent unexpected deaths. When
I found reflection I decided to switch. "Now I'm feeling safe enough."
(Famous last words!)

Once you do the Barbarian quest, the amulet of reflection will become
redundant so you can switch to life-saving. Rodney cannot steal the QA
in dNetHack, only 3 monsters that you are likely to encounter (your
quest nemesis, Lungorthin, and Chaos, the chaos1 and chaos3 quest
bosses) have the ability to steal your quest artifact, so it is safe to
rely on.

Dragon scale mail wears 150aum and doesn't provide the best protection,
although it does provide useful extrinsics.

Oh, that's heavy (it was 50 in vanilla, IIRC). At the moment I am
wearing an elven mithril coat (weight 20), a dwarven mithril cloak
that I found had shown the same AC.

I would probably wear the
crystal plate mail from Vlad's tower, if I had the carrycap. It's
170aum (more than DSM but much less than in vanilla) and provides more
protection.

I am used to ignore this type of armor, so I left it unexplored in
Vlad's tower. (So I should probably return to get it?) Still, if I
compare my weight 20 mithril armor with a 150 or 170 item, hmm...

I probably wouldn't bother if it made me burdened. Crystal armour
provides lots of AC/DR, doesn't block spellcasting, and can be enchanted
to +7, but it's heavy (still lighter than vanilla) and prevents any dex
bonus to your AC (half-dragons are limited to 10 dex so this doesn't
matter for you).

[ "dokkalfar eternal matriarch" ]

Hmm, okay, this procedure sounds very interesting but the opponent
doesn't sound right for a "101" player candidate. :-)

I forgot to mention that they also have +5 mithril GoP, but yes. It's a
good early wish if you don't care about ascension rate or streaks.

Janis Papanagnou

2023-09-18 10:43:03 UTC

[intrinsics]

This is nice.

Post by Ron Nazarov
Nenya is a diamond ring (or silver
ring if diamond is polymorph) and probably one of the best artifacts
depending on the base type. What base type did you get?

The game says: "Nenya [unaligned ring of see invisible]" and
see invisible is a diamond ring.

Oh, now I understand. The base type may vary. So I consider myself
lucky to have got a harmless type. (I'm still lacking free action,
slow digestion, and conflict; so any of these would of course have
been better.) And the material (diamond) is mostly irrelevant. Okay.

Re: "one of the best artifacts"? (I don't get it or missed it.) Why?

I see. Some are not relevant in my case (water walking, monster
detection), but I see that spell casting is - even for my 100%
spell failure barbarian it gets 0%; sadly I have only the detect
monsters divination spell. Energy regeneration is also of little
use in this context. May be more valuable as the game evolves.

One question; would the geyser clerical monster spell also clear
scrolls/spellbooks and dilute potions that are inside a container?

And another one; I found a room with walls full of books. As a
non-spellcaster barbarian I ignored them. But, given Nenya, it
may now be interesting to read the books for divination spells.

Janis

Ron Nazarov

2023-09-18 17:33:03 UTC

Post by Janis Papanagnou
[...]
I see. Some are not relevant in my case (water walking, monster
detection), but I see that spell casting is - even for my 100%
spell failure barbarian it gets 0%; sadly I have only the detect
monsters divination spell. Energy regeneration is also of little
use in this context. May be more valuable as the game evolves.

Monster detection works across the entire level, but half-dragon scent
has a limited range.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
One question; would the geyser clerical monster spell also clear
scrolls/spellbooks and dilute potions that are inside a container?

Yes. A greased cloak will protect your entire inventory, but it can
wear off, so grease your cloak and bag. Grease has a lower chance of
wearing off if your cloak is blessed. The waterproofing intrinsic
(granted by wearing Nenya or an oilskin cloak, or slotlessly by binding
Enki or learning the Dividing Word) also protects your entire inventory,
but cannot wear off. High luck also has a high chance of protecting
your inventory.

Post by Janis Papanagnou
And another one; I found a room with walls full of books. As a
non-spellcaster barbarian I ignored them. But, given Nenya, it
may now be interesting to read the books for divination spells.

Spellbooks can also be read to learn wards, so they are useful even for
non-spellcasters. The chance of successfully learning a ward still
depends on your intelligence and level, but it's much higher than the
chance of successfully learning a spell.

Janis Papanagnou

2023-09-18 22:22:39 UTC

Post by Ron Nazarov
Monster detection works across the entire level, but half-dragon scent
has a limited range.

Yes, I noticed. What I meant is that for surviving the short range is
sufficient. (Seeing all monsters irritates me more than helping me.
The same very subjective effect with Vanilla's warning, which is okay,
but blessed monster detection I find helpful only in a few specific
situations. It would probably be less disturbing if the highlighting
of the monster characters would be turned off.)

[water damage / geyser spell]

Yes. A greased cloak will protect your entire inventory, but it can
wear off, so grease your cloak and bag. Grease has a lower chance of
wearing off if your cloak is blessed. [...]

I have found lot of grease; two in my stash, two with me. (I think I
have already greased my bag at least, but not my very burnt cloak.)

Post by Ron Nazarov
Spellbooks can also be read to learn wards, so they are useful even for
non-spellcasters. The chance of successfully learning a ward still
depends on your intelligence and level, but it's much higher than the
chance of successfully learning a spell.

I never studied or tried out how wards work, so I abstained "applying"
wards in my game. (I've seen them also in some variant(s) but never
made use of them for that reason.)

Thanks again for your valuable input.

Janis

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

2023-09-16 19:09:35 UTC

Post by Ron Nazarov
Magic missile wands were recently changed in dNetHack to have ~100
charges (10x normal) to have them be more useful in the early game
(because you can spam them). Unfortunately this had some bad side
effects (incantifiers get loads of nutrition by eating them, explosions
do loads of damage) so in the next version (devel-3.22.1) they have been
changed to instead have a 1/10 chance of not using a charge.

I always thought, that Nethack unnecessary deviates from general magic
lore with wands. In most fantasy settings, wands are either (just) used
to channel magic directly from witches/wizards. Or wands are "pre-loaded"
using the magic of witches/wizards. Afterwards, they can be applied
without further magical drain at any time; sometimes even by non-magical
persons.

Nethack could therefore implement a "charge wand" command, that drains
the (magical) energy from the player character as a balance. Wands like
magic missile and striking should be chargeable by low-level characters.
Charging wands of death and other "high-level" wands should, OTOH, drain
a ridiculous amount of energy. Each charging attempt usually adds just 1
charge to the chosen wand.

For _experienced_ witches/wizards each charging may add 1..2 or 1..3
charges, randomly. (Draining the same amount of energy for 1 as well as
3 charges. - A matter of experience, ability, and luck.) Non-magical
player characters only add 0..1 charge on each attempt. Magical player
characters (that are not experienced witches/wizards, at the same time -
like fighter class elves) _always_ add 1 charge on each attempt.

Wands have a chance to blow up during charging. (Wand of wishing: 100%.)
Shopkeepers of wand shops should be able to recharge wands (for a price,
of course), as well.

Unknown wands may be charged. This will neither identify the type of
the wand nor the number of charges, though. The amount of drained
energy will be a (rough) pointer at how advanced the type of the wand
is. Unidentified wands (= unknown type) should probably have a higher
likelihood of blowing up during charging.

Like with magic markers, insufficient energy will just drain the player
empty of energy without adding any charge to the wand.

The current restriction on the number of recharges for each wand will
need to be dropped to permit recurring recharges. Just the wand of
wishing should keep the restriction. - For the one possible recharge
by scroll.

With these changes to wands, players need to decide, whether to use
up (magical) energy for preparation (= wands) or save it for immediate
use in combat (= spells).

BeAr

--
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===

Janis Papanagnou

2023-09-17 10:23:04 UTC

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
I always thought, that Nethack unnecessary deviates from general magic
lore with wands. In most fantasy settings, wands are either (just) used
to channel magic directly from witches/wizards. Or wands are "pre-loaded"
using the magic of witches/wizards. Afterwards, they can be applied
without further magical drain at any time; sometimes even by non-magical
persons.

Hmm.. - I never pondered about NH wands. Actually they are implemented
like firearms, loaded. Thus they are generally useful, and usable also
for non-magicians. - The idea that the wand's magic energy is not taken
from charges but from the caster's spell-power, and that it amplifies
the power, is appealing! - You wouldn't need to carry around so many of
them; one of each kind would suffice. (I already mentioned before that
I dislike all that item pollution in roguelikes.)

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Nethack could therefore implement a "charge wand" command, that drains
the (magical) energy from the player character as a balance. [...]

Why not just drain an amount of power at the moment then wand is used
by the player?

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Wands like
magic missile and striking should be chargeable by low-level characters.
Charging wands of death and other "high-level" wands should, OTOH, drain
a ridiculous amount of energy. Each charging attempt usually adds just 1
charge to the chosen wand.

Zaps of high level wands would either not work, fizzle, or would work
with less damage done (depending on available spell power).

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
[...]
Wands have a chance to blow up during charging. (Wand of wishing: 100%.)

These wands of wishing could just be removed from the game. (Other
variants seem to have [also] other means for wishes.)

Wands getting blown up should IMO depend on the wand; since I somewhat
dislike the wand-charging concept, only cursed ones could/should have a
chance to blow up and/or when using them with high-level "spells" there
could also be a chance.

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
[...]
Like with magic markers, insufficient energy will just drain the player
empty of energy without adding any charge to the wand.
The current restriction on the number of recharges for each wand will
need to be dropped to permit recurring recharges. Just the wand of
wishing should keep the restriction. - For the one possible recharge
by scroll.

Or remove the charge concept in favor of a player's spell-power concept.

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
With these changes to wands, players need to decide, whether to use
up (magical) energy for preparation (= wands) or save it for immediate
use in combat (= spells).

Similar when removing wand charges and use wands to amplify spells. The
question remains, though, whether they should be coupled with spells or
work independently; whether the zapped effect depends on known spells
or (as currently implemented) on the wand. - The source code already
has this zap/cast-equivalence implemented; in zap.c we see WAN/SPE tags
in the same case branches. So they don't really add anything but reveal
the duplication of effects, once in a loadable/chargeable wand and then
from a learned knowledge. Wizards for example would know how to channel
their spell power into wands, barbarians less so. That would diversify
the roles maybe also a bit more.

Janis

B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson

2023-09-17 18:39:29 UTC

Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Nethack could therefore implement a "charge wand" command, that drains
the (magical) energy from the player character as a balance. [...]

Why not just drain an amount of power at the moment then wand is used
by the player?

Roughly spoken: Wands that drain energy during spellcasting would just
work too much like spells. ;-) The basic function of wands in NH is
to be used by non-magical characters or in low-energy situations for
magic users. (Or to keep energy at high levels for later use.)

The ability for non-magical people to siphon background magic or ones
own life energy into pre-created wands or magical objects isn't a new
one, btw. Some fantasy setups already have used this idea as basis for
their lore. It is a consideration to give non-magical people a fighting
chance in all-magical environments.