Discussion:
Wide mazes
(too old to reply)
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-22 12:52:57 UTC
Permalink
A few years ago I suggested to create wide mazes in Gehennom to make it
less boring (the twisted paths would not be that annoying then) and more
challenging (you can get surrounded by random and by summoned monsters).
I happily notice in NH-361 that this feature got implemented. I want to
extend that suggestion: make the walls _undiggable_ in cases where the
corridors are very wide (3 squares or larger), either always or randomly.
Otherwise it's quite stale to cross such levels, as I observed at NAO.

Janis
jim in austin
2018-07-22 17:52:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janis Papanagnou
A few years ago I suggested to create wide mazes in Gehennom to make it
less boring (the twisted paths would not be that annoying then) and more
challenging (you can get surrounded by random and by summoned monsters).
I happily notice in NH-361 that this feature got implemented. I want to
extend that suggestion: make the walls _undiggable_ in cases where the
corridors are very wide (3 squares or larger), either always or randomly.
Otherwise it's quite stale to cross such levels, as I observed at NAO.
Digging is rarely necessary to explore these wide-corridor/linked_rooms but
may aid in designing the quickest and most direct ascension route. That is
always a part of my excavating in Gehennom and elsewhere. I would be lost
without my trusty, fixed pickaxe...
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-22 18:14:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by jim in austin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
A few years ago I suggested to create wide mazes in Gehennom to make it
less boring (the twisted paths would not be that annoying then) and more
challenging (you can get surrounded by random and by summoned monsters).
I happily notice in NH-361 that this feature got implemented. I want to
extend that suggestion: make the walls _undiggable_ in cases where the
corridors are very wide (3 squares or larger), either always or randomly.
Otherwise it's quite stale to cross such levels, as I observed at NAO.
Digging is rarely necessary to explore these wide-corridor/linked_rooms but
may aid in designing the quickest and most direct ascension route. That is
always a part of my excavating in Gehennom and elsewhere. I would be lost
without my trusty, fixed pickaxe...
Yes, I understand that. I do that myself in those narrow NH-343 mazes. But
with those wide NH-361 mazes the paths are already very short. So if you
allow digging in such a topography you could as well - I'm exaggerating
only a bit - just place an open bigroom on every Gehennom level, and it
wouldn't be much different (modulo digging two or three walls).

Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-23 03:59:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janis Papanagnou
A few years ago I suggested to create wide mazes in Gehennom to make it
less boring (the twisted paths would not be that annoying then) and more
challenging (you can get surrounded by random and by summoned monsters).
I happily notice in NH-361 that this feature got implemented. I want to
extend that suggestion: make the walls _undiggable_ in cases where the
corridors are very wide (3 squares or larger), either always or randomly.
Otherwise it's quite stale to cross such levels, as I observed at NAO.
The most important danger I encountered on wide corridor levels is the
creation of several bunches of powerful monsters around you. (Monsters
with wands/scrolls of create monster, powerful spellcasters.) Undiggable
walls could be more than a nuisance, then.

Since Gehennom is generally very boring, I like the wide mazes for their
ability to speed the Gehennom play time up.

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-23 06:50:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
The most important danger I encountered on wide corridor levels is the
creation of several bunches of powerful monsters around you. (Monsters
with wands/scrolls of create monster, powerful spellcasters.)
Yes, that was one intention. In a one square wide maze you can arrange it
to have always just one or two foes (modulo umber hulks, etc.) around you.
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Undiggable walls could be more than a nuisance, then.
Well, you have to fight the monsters, as you'd do in the upper levels.
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Since Gehennom is generally very boring, I like the wide mazes for their
ability to speed the Gehennom play time up.
With wide mazes you much more quickly find the stairs, all you need is a
light source, and you can walk large parts efficiently, just diagonally.
One square wide mazes produce extremely convoluted paths; without digging
those paths are really a nuisance. Having those twisted passages removed
is IMO the most important part of removing Gehennom's nuisance.

In the upper dungeon, using a pick-axe, you have a lot of work to create
shortcuts. In a wide maze it would be (or rather it currenty is) trivial.
Simple overall topologies, efficient diagonal moves, and easily detectable
stairs is IMO sufficient to remove Gehennom's boredom without taking away
the challenges.

Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-23 17:33:20 UTC
Permalink
On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:50:12 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

[Fighting against monster charm "summon nasties" in a wide corridor]
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Undiggable walls could be more than a nuisance, then.
Well, you have to fight the monsters, as you'd do in the upper levels.
Nope. In upper levels I can (and do) retreat to passage ways. And I can
avoid open spaces, as long as advanced spell casters are nearby. I don't
like unreliable quick escape methods like teleport (without control) or
digging downwards, because these can land you in even greater mess. Last
week I decided fighting a nalfeshnee from afar in a wide corridor without
first digging an escape route. Next thing I saw was being surrounded by
2 master mind flayers, several less important dragons and the like and
(unfortunately) an umber hulk insisting to confuse me. Got away. But it
wasn't too funny at that moment...
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Since Gehennom is generally very boring, I like the wide mazes for their
ability to speed the Gehennom play time up.
With wide mazes you much more quickly find the stairs, all you need is a
light source, and you can walk large parts efficiently, just diagonally.
One square wide mazes produce extremely convoluted paths; without digging
those paths are really a nuisance. Having those twisted passages removed
is IMO the most important part of removing Gehennom's nuisance.
In the upper dungeon, using a pick-axe, you have a lot of work to create
shortcuts. In a wide maze it would be (or rather it currenty is) trivial.
Simple overall topologies, efficient diagonal moves, and easily detectable
stairs is IMO sufficient to remove Gehennom's boredom without taking away
the challenges.
Hm. If you didn't just wrote what I wrote (only in more words), then I
did not understand what you meant here...

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-24 07:00:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by Janis Papanagnou
With wide mazes you much more quickly find the stairs, all you need is a
light source, and you can walk large parts efficiently, just diagonally.
One square wide mazes produce extremely convoluted paths; without digging
those paths are really a nuisance. Having those twisted passages removed
is IMO the most important part of removing Gehennom's nuisance.
In the upper dungeon, using a pick-axe, you have a lot of work to create
shortcuts. In a wide maze it would be (or rather it currenty is) trivial.
Simple overall topologies, efficient diagonal moves, and easily detectable
stairs is IMO sufficient to remove Gehennom's boredom without taking away
the challenges.
Hm. If you didn't just wrote what I wrote (only in more words), then I
did not understand what you meant here...
What I meant is; a) Gehennom's boredom is significantly reduced by wide
mazes (-> short ways, quick detection of stairs), b) wide mazes make
Gehennom less trivial (-> getting surrounded by monsters is now possible),
c) being able to also dig shortcuts - in addition to a) - makes Gehennom
levels too trivial.

My point was; points a) and b) address formerly discussed shortcomings,
while the implementation has a (IMO negative) consequence c) that makes
it too boring again - but now by topographic triviality.

Thus my conclusion to make mazes with corridor widths larger than three
have undiggable walls. (An option could be to have random diggable spots
in the walls, but I think that would be too much effort for nothing.)

Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-24 18:03:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Hm. If you didn't just wrote what I wrote (only in more words), then I
did not understand what you meant here...
What I meant is; a) Gehennom's boredom is significantly reduced by wide
mazes (-> short ways, quick detection of stairs), b) wide mazes make
Gehennom less trivial (-> getting surrounded by monsters is now possible),
c) being able to also dig shortcuts - in addition to a) - makes Gehennom
levels too trivial.
So I did understand you, correctly. I agree with a) and b), but not
with c). Diggable walls in wide corridors increase possibilities of
playing styles and choices. That makes the game more interesting,
compared to wide corridors with undiggable walls, where you have to
follow the same beaten tracks with the same chances and risks over
and over again.

Having said that, wide corridors /could/ do with some topological
improvement. Maybe a sink surrounded by swamp here and there. Maybe
diagonal pre-dug shorttracks (which require the player to be small
enough and unburdend or else need to be widened by digging), while
the wide corridor surrounds that shorttrack labyrinth-like. This
would need thicker walls or sections without corridor, of course...

Maybe the opposite: diagonal (diggable) walls with small openings
inside some of the wide corridor sections. Maybe two maze-like
structures east and west (where each has one of the stairs) with a
big room in between. (As a variant of the wide corridor levels.)

Ultimately, every one of the topologies will get somewhat boring
to the experienced player. At this point, it IMHO depends on the
playing style, how a player experiences Gehennom. For me, the
excitement comes from equipping the player monster to not needing
to worry about any obstacle, that might come. (Which actually isn't
possible, but can be achieved with close enough convergence.) The
fighting is just some interlude or means to an end. - There are
those days, where beating-up monsters is much more satisfying,
though... ;-)

Because the main dungeon usually is enough for equipping, I quite
often quit around Gehennom entry or just advance quickly to deal with
the demon princes and Vlad before finally abandoning the game. Making
Gehennom harder would defile the purpose of moderate (usually wishless
and polyless) preparation. It would require more extreme preparation
(ending up in less-flexible equipping steps and ascention kits) or
lead to frustrating notions of imbalance. Increasing the difficulty of
Gehennom would also lead to a more difficult endgame, btw., to keep the
overall balance. IMHO, these would be changes NH doesn't need...

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-25 15:24:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by Janis Papanagnou
What I meant is; a) Gehennom's boredom is significantly reduced by wide
mazes (-> short ways, quick detection of stairs), b) wide mazes make
Gehennom less trivial (-> getting surrounded by monsters is now possible),
c) being able to also dig shortcuts - in addition to a) - makes Gehennom
levels too trivial.
So I did understand you, correctly. I agree with a) and b), but not
with c). Diggable walls in wide corridors increase possibilities of
playing styles and choices. That makes the game more interesting,
compared to wide corridors with undiggable walls, where you have to
follow the same beaten tracks with the same chances and risks over
and over again.
Hmm.. - you cross Gehennom by the explicit paths more that once?!
No wonder you find it boring! ;-)

The "forth and back" exploration phase is in my games bound to the
upper dungeons. I even rarely *explore* Gehennom. Rather, I often
just dig down every other level to speed up finding the stairs with
minimum level-mapping investment. After the first pass of Gehennom
I usually just once again level-port though it to make some stash
management. And that's it.

Given that you can dig down and intra-level teleport (modulo only
a few non-floor-diggable, no-teleport levels) and level-teleports
I don't see a point in shortcutting large mazes. (It is a point in
those convoluted old mazes; digging paths is IMO crucial there.)
But okay, we disagree on that point.
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Having said that, wide corridors /could/ do with some topological
improvement. [...]
(Interesting ideas, worth discussing, snipped in current context.)
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Because the main dungeon usually is enough for equipping, I quite
often quit around Gehennom entry or just advance quickly to deal with
the demon princes and Vlad before finally abandoning the game. Making
Gehennom harder would defile the purpose of moderate (usually wishless
and polyless) preparation. It would require more extreme preparation
(ending up in less-flexible equipping steps and ascention kits) or
lead to frustrating notions of imbalance. Increasing the difficulty of
Gehennom would also lead to a more difficult endgame, btw., to keep the
overall balance. IMHO, these would be changes NH doesn't need...
I can't quite follow your thoughts here. Gehennom has already been
made harder by a couple changes which are independent of the question
of non-diggable wide mazes. The latter is (IMO) negligible compared
to the other changes.[*]

Janis

[*] Which, I have to admit, I know only by hearsay, what I read and
heard about it here.
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-25 17:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Diggable walls in wide corridors increase possibilities of
playing styles and choices. That makes the game more interesting,
compared to wide corridors with undiggable walls, where you have to
follow the same beaten tracks with the same chances and risks over
and over again.
Hmm.. - you cross Gehennom by the explicit paths more that once?!
No wonder you find it boring! ;-)
The "forth and back" exploration phase is in my games bound to the
upper dungeons.
Huh?? I didn't mean the same level corridor of a certain game. Wide
corridors in the current implementation are recurring. No matter whether
you encounter several ones in a game or compare different games: There's
not enough space on the level extent to create really different look
and feel. For me, solving wide corridors is a bit like watching giant
slalom (skiing) from afar. This - fortunately - changes a bit after
creating shortcuts (or small safety pockets in double-wall designs).
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Given that you can dig down
As I already wrote: I consider digging down as a means for shortcuts
to be too risky. With stairs, you (usually) have a safe quick-return
path. Digging down can lead you in any mess imaginable. (Or worse.)
Then you start teleporting around or digging on to escape and quickly
loose control over the game. Nope. Not my style of playing.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Making
Gehennom harder would defile the purpose of moderate (usually wishless
and polyless) preparation. It would require more extreme preparation
(ending up in less-flexible equipping steps and ascention kits) or
lead to frustrating notions of imbalance. Increasing the difficulty of
Gehennom would also lead to a more difficult endgame, btw., to keep the
overall balance. IMHO, these would be changes NH doesn't need...
I can't quite follow your thoughts here. Gehennom has already been
made harder by a couple changes which are independent of the question
of non-diggable wide mazes. The latter is (IMO) negligible compared
to the other changes.
In my opinion, undiggable walls in wide corridors would have only two
effects, which I both consider undesirable:
* Reduce playing (and playing style) options
* Increase chances of being pinned down in open space; especially by
summoned nasties, but also by recurring ?oCM or /oCM read or zapped
by monsters

The first makes Gehennom more boring, again. (After wide corridors in
general added diversity and options.)

The second *adds* to a slight increase of either the need of equipment
optimization or death probability throughout Gehennom, which naturally
will be balanced by an even harder endgame. The harder it is to finish
the game with sub-optimal equipment, the more similar get all ascention
kits and playing styles. - Again, the game gets more boring.

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
David Damerell
2018-07-25 19:38:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
In my opinion, undiggable walls in wide corridors would have only two
* Reduce playing (and playing style) options
* Increase chances of being pinned down in open space; especially by
summoned nasties, but also by recurring ?oCM or /oCM read or zapped
by monsters
Just how many teleportation charges can you bring to Gehennom with no
special effort?
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
will be balanced by an even harder endgame. The harder it is to finish
the game with sub-optimal equipment, the more similar get all ascention
kits and playing styles.
This is not a given. Both Angband and DCSS heavily punish poor equipment,
but there are still diverse options (far more so than in NetHack) for good
equipment. Spork's Gehennom is far harder, but it offers more equipment
options, both because of the useful features of the other DSMs and because
it's less absolute in demanding resistances. I don't agree at all with
this idea that the middle-to-late game has to stay laughably easy to allow
choices in ascension kits, especially given that with a minimum of 3
wishes available a sensible player won't actually go for anything but the
good options.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
And now, a seemingly inexplicable shot of a passing train.
Today is Gaiman, July - a public holiday.
Tomorrow will be Second Potmos, July.
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-25 20:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Damerell
Just how many teleportation charges can you bring to Gehennom with no
special effort?
It is not a question of can, but do. You may play relying on teleport
and control. I usually don't. In most cases I carry exactly 1 /oT (for
extremely dangerous situations), but rarely use it more than 2 or 3 times
during the whole game. And I usually don't bother with gaining teleport
control, either. I know, that I loose the ability to quickly cover large
distances, which surely adds to my boredom with Gehennom to some degree.
But I noticed, that jumping from stair to stair disappoints me even more.
(That carries the notion of senselessness...)
Post by David Damerell
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
will be balanced by an even harder endgame. The harder it is to finish
the game with sub-optimal equipment, the more similar get all ascention
kits and playing styles.
This is not a given. Both Angband and DCSS heavily punish poor equipment,
but there are still diverse options (far more so than in NetHack) for good
equipment. Spork's Gehennom is far harder, but it offers more equipment
options, both because of the useful features of the other DSMs and because
it's less absolute in demanding resistances. I don't agree at all with
this idea that the middle-to-late game has to stay laughably easy to allow
choices in ascension kits,
I'm all in for a higher variety of good kit options. At the moment,
there seems to be a path leading in the opposite direction, though.
Because ring spots are too valuable to be "wasted", CoP (for example)
seems more powerful for mid- and endgame (at least for fighter classes)
than any other cloak option since the last changes...
Post by David Damerell
especially given that with a minimum of 3 wishes available a sensible
player won't actually go for anything but the good options.
The granted wishes are, IMHO, a good encouragement for inexperienced
players. Everybody who thinks them to make the game too easy can play
wishless or at least castle-wand-wishless (= "invisible" self-chosen
conduct). I usually choose this path, because it makes equipping too
easy, which is the most fun part for me...

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
magicbymcauley6yahoo.com
2018-07-25 20:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by David Damerell
Just how many teleportation charges can you bring to Gehennom with no
special effort?
It is not a question of can, but do. You may play relying on teleport
and control. I usually don't. In most cases I carry exactly 1 /oT (for
extremely dangerous situations), but rarely use it more than 2 or 3 times
during the whole game. And I usually don't bother with gaining teleport
control, either. I know, that I loose the ability to quickly cover large
distances, which surely adds to my boredom with Gehennom to some degree.
But I noticed, that jumping from stair to stair disappoints me even more.
(That carries the notion of senselessness...)
Nobody wants to here about your disaffectations with it. Everybody here is mentally stable so why do you have to be a nail out of place?
Jorgen Grahn
2018-07-25 21:14:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by magicbymcauley6yahoo.com
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by David Damerell
Just how many teleportation charges can you bring to Gehennom with no
special effort?
It is not a question of can, but do. You may play relying on teleport
and control. I usually don't. In most cases I carry exactly 1 /oT (for
extremely dangerous situations), but rarely use it more than 2 or 3 times
during the whole game. And I usually don't bother with gaining teleport
control, either. I know, that I loose the ability to quickly cover large
distances, which surely adds to my boredom with Gehennom to some degree.
But I noticed, that jumping from stair to stair disappoints me even more.
(That carries the notion of senselessness...)
Nobody wants to here about your disaffectations with it. Everybody
here is mentally stable so why do you have to be a nail out of
place?
What an odd and hostile response to a perfectly sensible posting.
Please adjust your attitude.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
David Damerell
2018-07-26 19:53:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by David Damerell
Just how many teleportation charges can you bring to Gehennom with no
special effort?
It is not a question of can, but do.
It is a question of "can". If you gratuitously decline to bring useful
consumables which the game drops in huge quantities, that's your lookout.
It's not as if the weight per zap is prohibitive.
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
You may play relying on teleport and control.
What's control got to do with it? The worry was about being surrounded;
someone with a good supply of teleportation zaps won't be surrounded for
long.

I usually don't. In most cases I carry exactly 1 /oT (for
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
extremely dangerous situations), but rarely use it more than 2 or 3 times
during the whole game.
And if you're going into a maze with undiggable corridors, that policy
should be reconsidered, rather than suggesting the maze shouldn't be in
the game.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Potmos, July.
Tomorrow will be Second Teleute, July.
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-27 04:01:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by David Damerell
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
You may play relying on teleport and control.
What's control got to do with it? The worry was about being surrounded;
someone with a good supply of teleportation zaps won't be surrounded for
long.
Teleport without control is an incalculable risk. If /you/ like to play
this way: Your call. And as a method of avoiding foreseeable death: of
course okay. It is better to avoid situations where you'd need to resort
to such methods, altogether, though. Which - depending on the playing
style - is possible more often than some would think.
Post by David Damerell
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
I usually don't. In most cases I carry exactly 1 /oT (for
extremely dangerous situations), but rarely use it more than 2 or 3 times
during the whole game.
And if you're going into a maze with undiggable corridors, that policy
should be reconsidered, rather than suggesting the maze shouldn't be in
the game.
I'm not against creation of maze situations, where the player could be
surrounded by monsters. (If you read my suggestions for wide corridor
modifications, I suggested a middle "big room" as one variant.) I just
oppose modifications like undiggable "normal" wide corridors, which add
nothing to the game variety, but instead just diminish playing and
playing style options and just unnecessary balance this part of the
game to be bit harder, fightingwise.

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-27 06:31:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by David Damerell
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
You may play relying on teleport and control.
What's control got to do with it? The worry was about being surrounded;
someone with a good supply of teleportation zaps won't be surrounded for
long.
Teleport without control is an incalculable risk. If /you/ like to play
this way: Your call. [...]
I've read David's statement as teleporting away foes (which also works on
non-teleport levels), but on most levels you can also teleport yourself
away. If that's from within a summoned monster horde you will certainly
*not* land in a similar surroundings. Emergency teleports is a standard
means to escape (whether in context of undiggable walls or otherwise), so
I'd wonder if one does't use that tactics (in the given context or else).

Mind also, that you can avoid most summoners; as said, purple L can just
be genocided (and are a common #1 target anyway), nalfeshnees can be ESP
spotted in the maze and just avoided. There's not much left then until
you reached the last stage of the game, the homerun.
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by David Damerell
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
I usually don't. In most cases I carry exactly 1 /oT (for
extremely dangerous situations), but rarely use it more than 2 or 3 times
during the whole game.
And if you're going into a maze with undiggable corridors, that policy
should be reconsidered, rather than suggesting the maze shouldn't be in
the game.
[...] I just
oppose modifications like undiggable "normal" wide corridors, which add
nothing to the game variety, [...]
They add that not all mazes and paths look equal and where you just have
to walk 10 squares to the next level by shortcuts; diversity of levels.
They add that you would have to face a few more random monsters, monsters
that you wouldn't even meet in a diggable but conventional convoluted maze,
because you have to walk through the dungeon maze with a sensible amount
of distance. There are, BTW, already non-diggable dungeon layouts, so the
standard options that apply there could also be applied to the undiggable
varieties of maze layouts. There are also "hard diggable" wall variants
existing in several places.

But you can't apply you tin opener to pass walls. (If you understand what
I want to say here; you need a set of tactical tools or methods for the
many various static and dynamic situations.)

Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-27 16:11:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 27 Jul 2018 08:31:08 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

[Teleport information snipped]
Do you really think, that (after about 30 years of playing Nethack) I need
to be lectured in game basics??
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
oppose modifications like undiggable "normal" wide corridors, which add
nothing to the game variety, [...]
They add that not all mazes and paths look equal and where you just have
to walk 10 squares to the next level by shortcuts; diversity of levels.
After all I posted in this thread you /still/ manage to completely
misread what I wrote?! Do you do this on purpose?? I /welcome/ wide
corridors in their current implementation. And I have (and posted)
some thoughts for improvement. What I /do/ oppose against is the
"suggestion" you made in your OP: "make the walls _undiggable_".
IMHO, that's a *bad* idea. - Which I tried (and obviously failed)
to explain... :-(

BeAr
--
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
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Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-28 08:03:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Do you really think, that (after about 30 years of playing Nethack) I need
to be lectured in game basics??
No, I don't think so. (Besides other things you said you abstain from using
certain options.)
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
After all I posted in this thread you /still/ manage to completely
misread what I wrote?! Do you do this on purpose??
Given the hostile tone of this posting I think we should abandon this thread
now; it got far too long and everything has already been said anyway.
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
I /welcome/ wide
corridors in their current implementation. And I have (and posted)
some thoughts for improvement. What I /do/ oppose against is the
"suggestion" you made in your OP: "make the walls _undiggable_".
IMHO, that's a *bad* idea. - Which I tried (and obviously failed)
to explain... :-(
I think I have understood what you said. (Communication is always a two-way
thing, though.)

Happy hacking!

Janis
David Damerell
2018-07-31 11:39:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by David Damerell
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
You may play relying on teleport and control.
What's control got to do with it? The worry was about being surrounded;
someone with a good supply of teleportation zaps won't be surrounded for
long.
Teleport without control is an incalculable risk.
It's no risk at all because all the monsters in Gehennom are a bad joke,
and in the overwhelming majority of cases it is actually impossible to
land somewhere worse than the spot you just got summon nasties around you,
but the idea is to teleport the monsters away. Now you are not surrounded.
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
nothing to the game variety, but instead just diminish playing and
playing style options and just unnecessary balance this part of the
game to be bit harder, fightingwise.
This part of the game is crying out to be a bit harder, fightingwise. It
could start by having any difficulty fightingwise whatsoever.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Kill the tomato!
Today is Second Epithumia, July - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Second Olethros, July - a weekend.
magicbymcauley6gmail.com
2018-07-25 19:52:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Diggable walls in wide corridors increase possibilities of
playing styles and choices. That makes the game more interesting,
compared to wide corridors with undiggable walls, where you have to
follow the same beaten tracks with the same chances and risks over
and over again.
Hmm.. - you cross Gehennom by the explicit paths more that once?!
No wonder you find it boring! ;-)
The "forth and back" exploration phase is in my games bound to the
upper dungeons.
Huh?? I didn't mean the same level corridor of a certain game. Wide
corridors in the current implementation are recurring. No matter whether
Stop trying to change the game. No one wants wider corridors. There is no merit to random edits.
Jorgen Grahn
2018-07-25 20:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by Janis Papanagnou
What I meant is; a) Gehennom's boredom is significantly reduced by wide
mazes (-> short ways, quick detection of stairs), b) wide mazes make
Gehennom less trivial (-> getting surrounded by monsters is now possible),
c) being able to also dig shortcuts - in addition to a) - makes Gehennom
levels too trivial.
So I did understand you, correctly. I agree with a) and b), but not
with c). Diggable walls in wide corridors increase possibilities of
playing styles and choices. That makes the game more interesting,
compared to wide corridors with undiggable walls, where you have to
follow the same beaten tracks with the same chances and risks over
and over again.
Hmm.. - you cross Gehennom by the explicit paths more that once?!
No wonder you find it boring! ;-)
The "forth and back" exploration phase is in my games bound to the
upper dungeons. I even rarely *explore* Gehennom. Rather, I often
just dig down every other level to speed up finding the stairs with
minimum level-mapping investment.
I tended to use object detection in 3.4.3 Gehennom, in case something
cool like a magic marker was somewhere in the maze. But now that I
think of it, that was an excuse not to explore all of it -- without OD
I'd feel I was missing out on loot.

(Past tense, since I haven't played 3.4.3 in a long while, and haven't
gotten around to playing 3.6.x seriously yet.)

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-26 04:08:55 UTC
Permalink
I haven't played 3.4.3 in a long while, and haven't gotten around to
playing 3.6.x seriously yet.)
Without wishing to keep you from real-world activity ;-) I encourage
you to try v3.6.1. It, IMHO, is a good successor to v3.4.3 and adds a
couple of interesting new things. Some design decisions I don't like
as much as others. But wasn't this always the case with new versions?
;-)

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
Jorgen Grahn
2018-07-26 05:58:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
I haven't played 3.4.3 in a long while, and haven't gotten around to
playing 3.6.x seriously yet.)
Without wishing to keep you from real-world activity ;-) I encourage
you to try v3.6.1. It, IMHO, is a good successor to v3.4.3 and adds a
couple of interesting new things. Some design decisions I don't like
as much as others. But wasn't this always the case with new versions?
;-)
Thanks. The real world is kind of the problem in my case. Or maybe
Facebook is the problem.

I'm conservative when it comes to software, and don't like to be on
the so-called "bleeding edge", but in the Nethack case I think it's
important to support the 3.6.x work by using it.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-26 06:24:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jorgen Grahn
I tended to use object detection in 3.4.3 Gehennom, in case something
cool like a magic marker was somewhere in the maze. But now that I
think of it, that was an excuse not to explore all of it -- without OD
I'd feel I was missing out on loot.
I usually avoid that, mainly because of lacking enough potions of object
detection. If I have them I use them (also in Gehennom), specifically if
I am lacking some important or desirable item (you mentioned markers).
Digging helps to get the items. Intrinsic teleport helps as well. Often
I ignore these objects completely, if only because as a pack rat I don't
have much spare carrying capacity anyway. At that stage (in Gehennom)
there's usually also not much that I really need. Spare blessed potions
of object detection I save (e.g.) for Orcus' town.

Janis
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