Discussion:
Is there any penality for making Elbereth fade?
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l***@gmail.com
2018-10-04 16:29:46 UTC
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I'm still trying to get the hang of the new worthless Elbereth.

Every time my character scribbles it, the monster flees, and then he fires off a force bolt, there's a message "You feel like a hypocrite. The engraving beneath you fades." and of course it is gone and needs to be rewritten.

Is it fading the only penalty or is my character racking up some bad karma that will show it self in a few turns?

Thanks in advance.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-10-04 17:49:36 UTC
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Post by l***@gmail.com
I'm still trying to get the hang of the new worthless Elbereth.
Every time my character scribbles it, the monster flees, and then he fires
off a force bolt, there's a message "You feel like a hypocrite. The
engraving beneath you fades." and of course it is gone and needs to be
rewritten.
Is it fading the only penalty or is my character racking up some bad karma
that will show it self in a few turns?
You will get an alignment penalty (5 points) ...

if (via_attack && sengr_at("Elbereth", u.ux, u.uy, TRUE)) {
You_feel("like a hypocrite.");
/* AIS: Yes, I know alignment penalties and bonuses aren't balanced
at the moment. This is about correct relative to other "small"
penalties; it should be fairly large, as attacking while standing
on an Elbereth means that you're requesting peace and then
violating your own request. I know 5 isn't actually large, but
it's intentionally larger than the 1s and 2s that are normally
given for this sort of thing. */
adjalign(-5);

if (!Blind)
pline("The engraving beneath you fades.");
del_engr_at(u.ux, u.uy);
}

It wasn't there in NH-360 but have it in NH-361; they not only penalize
it but also added that offensive wording. The comment in the source code
("you're requesting peace") is quite nonsensical, though. Peace? In NH?
LOL! (Pacifists, maybe.) - If I write the word then I request nothing but
_protection_. And also the monsters flee in this case, it's not that they
would accept the engraving as a "peace negotiation". - I recall former
versions (from 3.0 to 3.4) all had a compile time flag (#ifdef ELBERETH)
to disable it. Now this flag is gone but they still don't seem to know
whether they should keep Elbereth, or in which form - or remove it? ;-)

Janis
forbincol
2018-10-12 09:11:06 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by l***@gmail.com
I'm still trying to get the hang of the new worthless Elbereth.
Every time my character scribbles it, the monster flees, and then he fires
off a force bolt, there's a message "You feel like a hypocrite. The
engraving beneath you fades." and of course it is gone and needs to be
rewritten.
Is it fading the only penalty or is my character racking up some bad karma
that will show it self in a few turns?
You will get an alignment penalty (5 points) ...
if (via_attack && sengr_at("Elbereth", u.ux, u.uy, TRUE)) {
You_feel("like a hypocrite.");
/* AIS: Yes, I know alignment penalties and bonuses aren't balanced
at the moment. This is about correct relative to other "small"
penalties; it should be fairly large, as attacking while standing
on an Elbereth means that you're requesting peace and then
violating your own request. I know 5 isn't actually large, but
it's intentionally larger than the 1s and 2s that are normally
given for this sort of thing. */
adjalign(-5);
if (!Blind)
pline("The engraving beneath you fades.");
del_engr_at(u.ux, u.uy);
}
It wasn't there in NH-360 but have it in NH-361; they not only penalize
it but also added that offensive wording. The comment in the source code
("you're requesting peace") is quite nonsensical, though. Peace? In NH?
LOL! (Pacifists, maybe.) - If I write the word then I request nothing but
_protection_. And also the monsters flee in this case, it's not that they
would accept the engraving as a "peace negotiation". - I recall former
versions (from 3.0 to 3.4) all had a compile time flag (#ifdef ELBERETH)
to disable it. Now this flag is gone but they still don't seem to know
whether they should keep Elbereth, or in which form - or remove it? ;-)
Janis
How is it not requesting peace? You're asking the monster to not attack you and then STABBING IN THE BACK AS IT FLEES.

It makes perfect sense
Janis Papanagnou
2018-10-12 15:25:23 UTC
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Post by forbincol
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Every time my character scribbles it, the monster flees, [...]
[...]
Post by forbincol
Post by Janis Papanagnou
It wasn't there in NH-360 but have it in NH-361; they not only penalize
it but also added that offensive wording. The comment in the source code
("you're requesting peace") is quite nonsensical, though. Peace? In NH?
LOL! (Pacifists, maybe.) - If I write the word then I request nothing
but _protection_. And also the monsters flee in this case, it's not that
they would accept the engraving as a "peace negotiation". [...]
How is it not requesting peace?
I explained it already but if you want more verbosity here we go...

As I said; I am not requesting _peace_ from the monster, just _protection_
from the elven power (google for "Elbereth" in the Tolkien context, if you
don't know what I am talking about). If I'd want _peace_ then I'd probably
read taming. Taming may make monsters _peaceful_. Elbereth will make them
_flee_ (not peaceful). Got the difference?
Post by forbincol
You're asking the monster to not attack you
No, I'm not asking that, as explained now for the second time. (You claimed
that I would ask that, but it is not true.) I am asking the elven powers to
protect me.
Post by forbincol
and then STABBING IN THE BACK AS IT FLEES.
Yes, of course. (I have not asked the monster for peace.) - And why are you
shouting; are you member of the "Save Fleeing Monsters Union" or functionary
of the "Mistreated Monsters Trust"?

Or do you want to make up a moral issue from the implemented game mechanics?
Post by forbincol
It makes perfect sense
YMMV (but, given your reaction, I suppose you are just trolling and seeking
conflict, given that you posted other silly statements already in the past)

Janis
Exeter-Harvard
2018-10-12 21:46:17 UTC
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I agree with Janis. In no way do I want "peace" when engraving Elbereth. I always plan on killing the monsters after stepping off the Elbereth square, not peacefully coexist with them.
Pat Rankin
2018-10-13 23:26:47 UTC
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Post by Exeter-Harvard
I agree with Janis. In no way do I want "peace" when engraving Elbereth.
I always plan on killing the monsters after stepping off the Elbereth square,
not peacefully coexist with them.
That's nice, but why are you quibbling about the phrasing of a source
code comment which is never visible to the player? The message is
"You feel like a hypocrite." Requesting and gaining protection so that
monsters aren't able to attack you any more and then continuing to
attack them sounds hypocritical to me.

If you step off the Elbereth square or erase/overwrite the engraving
before attacking, the issue becomes moot. The message is given
when the engraving you're standing on--or floating above--gets
removed, as an indication that attacking having under such protection
is not a good thing to do.

You probably ought to be allowed to retaliate against ranged attackers
who attack despite your being on Elbereth, but I suspect that the
complexity is far more trouble that this would be worth. Much simpler
to eliminate "Elbereth" altogether.
Pat Rankin
2018-10-14 20:22:09 UTC
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[...] as an indication that attacking having under such protection
is not a good thing to do.
Bungled editing on my part. "attacking having under" should have
been either "attacking while having" or "attacking when under".
I think I intended to change the second variation to the first and
somehow ended up merging them into nonsense.
Exeter-Harvard
2018-10-14 22:58:46 UTC
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I agree with you also. As a new Nethack player I don't have much experience with "Elbereth" anyway.
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