Discussion:
Why is anyone still playing 3.4.3?
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Balbo
2018-07-02 02:34:30 UTC
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Help me understand because I just don't get it. It's 2018.
--
Balbo
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-02 06:51:54 UTC
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Subject: Why is anyone still playing 3.4.3?
Post by Balbo
Help me understand because I just don't get it. It's 2018.
I could give you a couple reasons (and I even posted some in the past),
but instead want to seriously just ask you the question: "Why not?",
or, "What is so much better in 3.6.1 that isn't already in 3.4.3 ?"[*].
Answer these questions and you may have an answer to your own question.

Janis

[*] Note: 3.4.3 is seen here as NAO 3.4.3 (i.e. with many bugs fixed).

PS: A different reply to your question that may be enlightening may ask
"Why is in 2018 anyone still playing ancient, non-graphical, character-
based games at all?" ;-)
jim in austin
2018-07-02 13:30:10 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Subject: Why is anyone still playing 3.4.3?
Post by Balbo
Help me understand because I just don't get it. It's 2018.
I could give you a couple reasons (and I even posted some in the past),
but instead want to seriously just ask you the question: "Why not?",
or, "What is so much better in 3.6.1 that isn't already in 3.4.3 ?"[*].
Answer these questions and you may have an answer to your own question.
[*] Note: 3.4.3 is seen here as NAO 3.4.3 (i.e. with many bugs fixed).
PS: A different reply to your question that may be enlightening may ask
"Why is in 2018 anyone still playing ancient, non-graphical, character-
based games at all?" ;-)
My wife is playing 3.4.3 via an app on her chromebook. I am slowly easing
her past tiles to the standard interface. The next step will be to ssh to
a server that offers 3.6.1. But even I won't mess with the variants...
Zork Ringmasters
2018-07-03 13:29:10 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Subject: Why is anyone still playing 3.4.3?
Post by Balbo
Help me understand because I just don't get it. It's 2018.
I could give you a couple reasons (and I even posted some in the past),
but instead want to seriously just ask you the question: "Why not?",
or, "What is so much better in 3.6.1 that isn't already in 3.4.3 ?"[*].
Answer these questions and you may have an answer to your own question.
Janis
[*] Note: 3.4.3 is seen here as NAO 3.4.3 (i.e. with many bugs fixed).
I spoke with my friend the Tourist. He was an old hand with hack. He said that often he would have to quit only for the purpose of registering a score due to instability issues. In that time with the entire freshman class playing hack, his Tourist score was legendary, i.e. I was the Mazewars champion Creeping Death.

Unstability is not that far in the past, and I myself remember segmentation faults from that era. It seems reasonable that if one wants to register an ascension, stability could be everything.

Sincerely,
~ZR~
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-05 19:41:24 UTC
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3.6.0 is a much more difficult game in my opinion.

Don't get me wrong I've ascended in 3.6.0 twice, but it's a way more difficult game.

I haven't ascended all roles in 3.4.3 because I'm not good enough to do that yet.

When I can ascend all roles in 3.4.3 I'll move on to 3.6.0, but not before. I'm not interested in super double difficulty right off the bat.

The best way people learn is by a gradual increase in difficulty not a steep increase in difficulty.

Nethack players consistently believe that the best way to learn Nethack is to instantly ramp it up to the highest difficulty possible and that's the best way to learn.

Unfortunately that flies in the face of everything we know about pedagogy and how the human brain learns. In fact, the human brain learns best by gradual increases in difficulty.

So I'm going to do gradual increases in difficulty because it gets people to the goal faster than steep increases.

Do you "get it" now?
Jorgen Grahn
2018-07-05 21:16:37 UTC
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
3.6.0 is a much more difficult game in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong I've ascended in 3.6.0 twice, but it's a way more difficult game.
I haven't ascended all roles in 3.4.3 because I'm not good enough to do that yet.
When I can ascend all roles in 3.4.3 I'll move on to 3.6.0, but not
before. I'm not interested in super double difficulty right off the
bat.
What makes it super difficult compared to 3.4.3? I know Elbereth has
been nerfed a bit (but I never relied on it anyway and don't know how
much others did).

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-05 21:29:34 UTC
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Post by Jorgen Grahn
Post by m***@yahoo.com
3.6.0 is a much more difficult game in my opinion.
Don't get me wrong I've ascended in 3.6.0 twice, but it's a way more difficult game.
I haven't ascended all roles in 3.4.3 because I'm not good enough to do that yet.
When I can ascend all roles in 3.4.3 I'll move on to 3.6.0, but not
before. I'm not interested in super double difficulty right off the
bat.
What makes it super difficult compared to 3.4.3? I know Elbereth has
been nerfed a bit (but I never relied on it anyway and don't know how
much others did).
I don't realy know the new version, but two changes I've heard about
certainly make a significant difference; Elbereth (for those of us
who use it), and the timing changes of monster attacks. Besides these
general working changes there's also some specific changes; Sokoban
difficulty comes to mind, and (I think) the demon lairs are also more
challenging, and for the advanced players Astral (level topology and
the rider's behaviour).

Janis
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-05 23:50:40 UTC
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It's not super super harder, it's just a level of difficulty harder. Elbereth has been slightly nerfed, though not completely. It doesn't work at all in gehennom and the endgame and permanent engraving's been taken away. I am not a big elbereth player so that hasn't hit me that hard. However the final planes are way different and many ascension strategies have been kicked back. Wand of teleport used to be the best strategy on astral, it works still but far less so. Pudding farming has ended. I wasn't a big pudding farmer but I'd do it from time to time. Plane of fire is much harder. There's smoke and vision obfuscations.

Armor has been changed so MC3 is very hard to get, and MC3 along with magic resistance is even harder to get. Classes/alignments who can get magic resistance artifacts now have a huge advantage.

Credic cloning is near impossible pets only pick up one piece of gold.

Alchemy is much harder and you won't convert all potions in the stack only a few.

There's a minetown variant with NO SHOPS. SUCKS!

Wizard can attack you before you've even woken him up! (I discovered this)

Can't levitate on plane of water. If you get knocked out of the air bubble it will blank your potions and scrolls unless protected by greased bag (1 round) or by oilskin bag (now you need an oilskin bag or risk ruining important potions scrolls)

Astral plane is enlarged 75% of the time and there's more monsters and a farther distance to go.

Some of the weapons have been upgraded a bit, notably the banes. They still don't compensate for how much harder this version is.
Pat Rankin
2018-07-06 01:55:27 UTC
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On Thursday, July 5, 2018 at 4:50:41 PM UTC-7, ***@yahoo.com wrote:
[...]
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Armor has been changed so MC3 is very hard to get, and MC3 along with
magic resistance is even harder to get. Classes/alignments who can get
magic resistance artifacts now have a huge advantage.
Definitely harder for spoiled players who know about magic cancellation
and how to acquire it. Only harder for unspoiled players who always picked
Wizard role without realizing that their starting cloak made things much
easier for another reason besides magic resistance. I'll give you this one;
the best MC is harder to get and without it the game is harder once you
reach nastier monsters. And even with the best MC, the game is harder.

MC2 is still easy to come by but provides only 60% protection against
various special attacks compared to 67% in 3.4.3, and to MC3's 90%
protection in 3.6.x and 98% in 3.4.3.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Credic cloning is near impossible pets only pick up one piece of gold.
That was a ridiculous abuse and this fix was a rather strange way to nerf
it (and only 'works' for ordinary pets; ones with hands still pick up whole
stacks). But clearing out a shop without paying a zorkmid is still feasible
so this is just whinging that you have to spend more time if you want to
take all the shop's goods without actually spending the gold to buy
anything.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Alchemy is much harder and you won't convert all potions in the stack only a few.
The "and" does belong in that sentence. Alchemy is exactly as easy or difficult
to perform as before but the fact that it affects only subsets of large stacks
does make it less effective. Unspoiled players will never notice the difference.

Note that water is handled as an exception and can still be blessed (or cursed)
in absurdly large quantities in one #dip.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
There's a minetown variant with NO SHOPS. SUCKS!
One out of how many variants? Seven, so you'll usually have access to some
shops there. Despite potentially making things much harder for particular
games, that is inconsequential in the general case. (It hasn't become harder
by 1 out of 7 since many of those 1 will end before reaching mine town.)

Prior to adding the mines and their town, there were no guaranteed shops at
all and the only guaranteed altars were in the endgame. And prior to the
first endgame, there weren't any guaranteed altars either. (Actually, there
might not have any altars at all way back then.) NetHack giveth and NetHack
taketh away, or something like that....
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Wizard can attack you before you've even woken him up! (I discovered this)
I think that was a bug in 3.6.0 which was fixed in 3.6.1, but I'm not sure.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Can't levitate on plane of water. If you get knocked out of the air bubble it
will blank your potions and scrolls unless protected by greased bag (1 round)
or by oilskin bag (now you need an oilskin bag or risk ruining important potions
scrolls)
That level is harder if you relied on levitation, but no different if you didn't.
No one has ever been able to explain where you were levitating that was
out of the water.

Levitation is still useful, to have controlled movement while inside an air
bubble. The bubbles move and merge in addition to growing and shrinking,
making it possible to [eventually] reach the exit portal without ever entering
the water.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Astral plane is enlarged 75% of the time and there's more monsters and a
farther distance to go.
This had me baffled for a minute, but you're referring to the change in
behavior of helms of opposite alignment. Your math needs a lot of work.

There's still a 1/3 chance to reach the correct altar first, and then if it's
not the correct one, a 50:50 chance to be able to take advantage of a
single helm. The only difference from 3.4.3 is that uncursing the helm
doesn't give neutral characters a chance to try again if the 50:50 chance
fails. (For lawfuls and chaotics, the 50:50 chance is whether the 'wrong'
altar is their true opposite instead of neutral, so uncursing the helm never
gave them a chance to retry.)

That's 2/3 chance overall--for every character regardless of alignment--to
be able to finish at the first temple visited. 1/3 chance for a clean finish,
1/3 chance to betray the god who sent you on the recover-the-Amulet
mission and finish by giving the Amulet to his/her/its rival, and 1/3 chance
to need to explore more of the normal-sized level to reach another temple.

So this is only "harder" if you always play neutral characters and don't
bother making any pretense at role playing. I won't quibble about the
latter; nethack is much more of a strategy game than an actual role
playing one, but always playing neutral, particularly if that's because it
allows a cheesy shortcut at the end, gets no sympathy.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Some of the weapons have been upgraded a bit, notably the banes.
They still don't compensate for how much harder this version is.
You're thoroughly spoiled with 3.4.3 and are upset that some of the
strategies you've grown to rely on aren't reliable any more. That isn't
quite the same thing as "harder" when there are generally lots of other
possible strategies.

But that being said, I agree that 3.6.x is harder than 3.4.3. But not nearly
so much harder as to stick with old bugs which were fixed years ago when
you could be encountering shiny new ones.. :-}

No doubt 3.6.x has its own shortcuts that just aren't known yet. I'm not
thinking of anything in particular that I know about and others don't. Just
in general, a game this size will always have unanticipated 'features' which
haven't been noticed, and attempts to fix one thing accidentally breaking
something else. "The dev-team thinks of everything", but sometimes not
until after others have pointed out things for them.
jim in austin
2018-07-06 04:01:10 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
[...]
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Armor has been changed so MC3 is very hard to get, and MC3 along with
magic resistance is even harder to get. Classes/alignments who can get
magic resistance artifacts now have a huge advantage.
Definitely harder for spoiled players who know about magic cancellation
and how to acquire it. Only harder for unspoiled players who always picked
Wizard role without realizing that their starting cloak made things much
easier for another reason besides magic resistance. I'll give you this one;
the best MC is harder to get and without it the game is harder once you
reach nastier monsters. And even with the best MC, the game is harder.
MC2 is still easy to come by but provides only 60% protection against
various special attacks compared to 67% in 3.4.3, and to MC3's 90%
protection in 3.6.x and 98% in 3.4.3.
I have gained a new appreciation for cloaks of protection.
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by m***@yahoo.com
There's a minetown variant with NO SHOPS. SUCKS!
But hey! Free candles!
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Wizard can attack you before you've even woken him up! (I discovered this)
I think that was a bug in 3.6.0 which was fixed in 3.6.1, but I'm not sure.
It has been fixed. After I had a second promising run scrambled by a
nalfeshnee waking Rodney I was off to the dev and never looked back.
Bobby Durrett
2018-07-06 12:31:39 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
Post by Pat Rankin
[...]
MC2 is still easy to come by but provides only 60% protection against
various special attacks compared to 67% in 3.4.3, and to MC3's 90%
protection in 3.6.x and 98% in 3.4.3.
I have gained a new appreciation for cloaks of protection.
I wondered about the changes to MC. I had read that there were changes
but didn't experience it until late in my one 3.6.0 ascension and didn't
really understand what it did. But, now I know. I kept getting levels
taken away by V's. I would get them right back but it was amusing. Then
I had to #enhance my long sword skill all over again when I got the
level back. I was using a displacement cloak. Guess I should have used
something else. I kind of like displacement though. Bummer to no longer
use it. Seems like there were more V's in 3.6.0 or that fog clouds kept
changing into them which seemed different. But it didn't really make
much difference at that point because I had a full ascension kit (except
for MC3).

Bobby
David Damerell
2018-07-07 07:42:16 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
Post by Pat Rankin
MC2 is still easy to come by but provides only 60% protection against
various special attacks compared to 67% in 3.4.3, and to MC3's 90%
protection in 3.6.x and 98% in 3.4.3.
I have gained a new appreciation for cloaks of protection.
Vexingly my old preferred option of going with displacement is less viable
now, unless you're going to wear a ring of protection with it.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk> flcl?
Today is Second Thursday, Presuary.
Tomorrow will be Second Friday, Presuary.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-06 07:51:21 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
[...]
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Armor has been changed so MC3 is very hard to get, and MC3 along with
magic resistance is even harder to get. Classes/alignments who can get
magic resistance artifacts now have a huge advantage.
the best MC is harder to get and without it the game is harder once you
reach nastier monsters.
I'd say the point is reached very early in the early game when were-foos
can completely spoil your game.
Post by Pat Rankin
NetHack giveth and NetHack taketh away, or something like that....
Uh-oh! Blasphemy! :-)
Post by Pat Rankin
Levitation is still useful, to have controlled movement while inside an air
bubble. The bubbles move and merge in addition to growing and shrinking,
making it possible to [eventually] reach the exit portal without ever entering
the water.
Wait! - You have now no control over your movement as on the Plane of Air,
or did I misunderstand what you say?
Post by Pat Rankin
But that being said, I agree that 3.6.x is harder than 3.4.3. But not nearly
so much harder as to stick with old bugs which were fixed years ago when
you could be encountering shiny new ones.. :-}
:-)

Janis
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-06 22:32:45 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
Definitely harder for spoiled players who know about magic cancellation
and how to acquire it.
No. Wrong. Harder for everyone. Spoiled and unspoiled players alike must play with enhanced difficulty.

In fact, the opposite is true. Spoiled players who know about it can take pains to get cloak of protection and another source of magic resistance.

Unspoiled charachters have a much, much, much harder time, because many cloaks gave MC3 in 3.4.3. Now unspoiled players die more often and have less of a random probbibility to get MC3. So unspoiled players are punished even more than spoiled players.

And both players are playing at an enhanced difficulty. Wrong, and wrong again.
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Credic cloning is near impossible pets only pick up one piece of gold.
That was a ridiculous abuse and this fix was a rather strange way to nerf
it (and only 'works' for ordinary pets; ones with hands still pick up whole
stacks). But clearing out a shop without paying a zorkmid is still feasible
so this is just whinging that you have to spend more time if you want to
take all the shop's goods without actually spending the gold to buy
anything.
Don't agree at all it's abuse. I used to credit clone all the time. It's a time consuming process at low levels. The dammned pet is always picking up the wrong thing. Then I'd spend 1 hour credit cloning only to get killed by the very next monster. Or I'd not pay attention and get bushwacked by monsters. The only time I credit clone is for very specific things ('you feel yourself speed up') or say a magic marker or scrolls in the 100 range (which might be enchant armor or enchant weapon).

Some games I don't credit clone at all. It's a waste of time. Also I play most games petless anyway.
Post by Pat Rankin
does make it less effective. Unspoiled players will never notice the difference.
Just because they don't notice it doesn't mean the game isn't harder! Not knowing the game is harder has nothing to do with if the game is harder!
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by m***@yahoo.com
There's a minetown variant with NO SHOPS. SUCKS!
One out of how many variants?
In 3.4.3 there is a ALWAYS a town with full shops. Yes it's 1/7 but if you get that town your game sucks big time. No tools! UGH!
Post by Pat Rankin
shops there. Despite potentially making things much harder for particular
games, that is inconsequential in the general case. (It hasn't become harder
by 1 out of 7 since many of those 1 will end before reaching mine town.)
Nope! WRONG. The game is significantly harder 1 out of 7 times you reach gnometown. Dying before you reach it doesn't affect the 1/7 probbability. The level is generated right before you hit the downstairs button and 1/7 times you hit that downstairs you're gonna have a bad time!
Post by Pat Rankin
Prior to adding the mines and their town, there were no guaranteed shops at
all and the only guaranteed altars were in the endgame.
Nonsequitor. What are you talking about? What version? Nehack 1.2? Seriously. Gnometown has been in effect for like 15 years.




And prior to the
Post by Pat Rankin
first endgame, there weren't any guaranteed altars either. (Actually, there
might not have any altars at all way back then.) NetHack giveth and NetHack
taketh away, or something like that....
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Wizard can attack you before you've even woken him up! (I discovered this)
I think that was a bug in 3.6.0 which was fixed in 3.6.1, but I'm not sure.
Okay. I haven't played 3.6.1 yet.
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Can't levitate on plane of water. If you get knocked out of the air bubble it
will blank your potions and scrolls unless protected by greased bag (1 round)
or by oilskin bag (now you need an oilskin bag or risk ruining important potions
scrolls)
That level is harder if you relied on levitation, but no different if you didn't.
Stop it. I have only heard of ONE person on here (and even Janis was incredulous) who tackled the plane of water without levitation. Everyone uses levitation on the plane of water.

Having a plane that can now blank your potions, scrolls and spellbooks is harder. Way harder. Now you're tempted to burn a wish on an oilskin bag. (I did it).
Post by Pat Rankin
No one has ever been able to explain where you were levitating that was
out of the water.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Astral plane is enlarged 75% of the time and there's more monsters and a
farther distance to go.
This had me baffled for a minute, but you're referring to the change in
behavior of helms of opposite alignment.
Nope. According to the wiki the level is enlarged and there are more monster.
Post by Pat Rankin
So this is only "harder" if you always play neutral characters and don't
bother making any pretense at role playing.
Hey, you can stick your pejoratives and judgements up your bag of holding.

First of all choosing to play neutrals all the time isn't "you don't bother making any pretense at roleplaying."

The claim that people who always play neutrals are bad at roleplaying is rejected.

I don't always play neutrals, but if I did, I would still say to take your pejorative judgmental ideas and stick them up your bag of holding.

I've ascended most roles and all alignments. Neutral is a desireable role because you can get artifacts that are desireable. Lawful has the arguably best artifacts, but there are really good ones for neutrals (vorpal blade, magicbane, mojo, etc.), and if you sacrifice long enough you'll eventually get magicbane thus neutrals have a guaranteed source of magic resistance without polypiling or wishing (yes it takes a lot of work, but with a blessed ring of slow digestion shouldn't be too hard just time consuming).




I won't quibble about the
Post by Pat Rankin
latter; nethack is much more of a strategy game than an actual role
playing one, but always playing neutral, particularly if that's because it
allows a cheesy shortcut at the end, gets no sympathy.
Using helm of alignment change at end is "cheesy": claim rejected.

You shouldn't play alignments that have advantages: claim rejected.

Saying Nethack is a strategy game and then telling people not to use an excellent strategy: claim rejected.
Post by Pat Rankin
You're thoroughly spoiled with 3.4.3 and are upset that some of the
strategies you've grown to rely on aren't reliable any more.
Ad hominem attack. Judgemental attack that I am spoiled and insinuation that I shouldn't be: shove it up your bag of holding.

Claim that I'm "angry" and that is why I don't like the changes: claim rejected.

Idea that people shouldn't rely on certain strategies: claim rejected.



That isn't
Post by Pat Rankin
quite the same thing as "harder" when there are generally lots of other
possible strategies.
But that being said, I agree that 3.6.x is harder than 3.4.3. But not nearly
so much harder as to stick with old bugs which were fixed years ago when
you could be encountering shiny new ones.. :-}
You and I may disagree as to what is a "bug" and what is a "feature".
Post by Pat Rankin
No doubt 3.6.x has its own shortcuts that just aren't known yet.
3.6.x has its own shortcuts: claim rejected. There is MUCH doubt that 3.6.x has new shortcuts.

In fact, it is my opinion that nethack continually gets harder as it continues, as the dev team understands what strategies are used and then outlaws those strategies.

The idea that in making 3.6.x will create new pathways to strategies that 3.4.3 has is also a claim I'm going to reject. Until there are new powerful strategies in 3.6.x that were not possible in 3.4.3, I will reject that claim.

It could well be that 3.6.x is strictly harder and there's no openings int he code to exploit that have been created by the new compile.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-06 23:52:20 UTC
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Can't levitate on plane of water. If you get knocked out of the air
bubble it will blank your potions and scrolls unless protected by
greased bag (1 round) or by oilskin bag (now you need an oilskin bag or
risk ruining important potions scrolls)
That level is harder if you relied on levitation, but no different if you didn't.
Stop it. I have only heard of ONE person on here (and even Janis was
incredulous) who tackled the plane of water without levitation. Everyone
uses levitation on the plane of water.
Since my name is mentioned and since I'm not quite sure what's expressed
here, let me clarify my position; a) [in NH-343] I never used levitation
to shortcut the way between air bubbles, b) it feels to me like cheating,
c) I therefore not necessarily use (or need) levitation on the Plane of
Water, but I often levitate at that point anyway, because, as my current
standard procedure, I try to use a blessed potion of levitation to cross
the Plane of Air, and the effect is typically still effective when I reach
the Astral Plane (so it's also active on the planes of Fire and Water),
d) my doubts whether I understood Pat's statement corrrectly was whether
it is now necessary to levitate while inside the air bubbled on the Plane
of Water, or whether you otherwise get a similar tumbling effect as you
get on the Plane of Air when you don't levitate.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
In fact, it is my opinion that nethack continually gets harder as it
continues, as the dev team understands what strategies are used and then
outlaws those strategies.
I second this fear. I suspected that this may indeed could be the case
(or, three years ago, could become true in the future with successors of
NH-343). The reason for that suspicion were statements concerning "nerfing"
features that a former RGRN poster (and now "junior member" of the Devteam)
posted, and (at least some of those changes) were recently implemented. I
hope that there's always room for innovative solutions, and I hope that in
future versions you are not restricted to have to use a single specific
preparation to advance. To be clear; it's no issue for me if the game gets
harder, but I think it's a drawback if options (=varieties) are removed
from the game and strategies and tactics get unified and streamlined.

Janis
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-07 04:11:14 UTC
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From what I remember on the thread it was someone who did a challenge game and eschewed levitation for the whole game?

In any case I remember that you were amazed that this person got through the plane of water and air without levitation, as not using a source of levitation on these planes was unheard of (both by you and me) and we'd never heard of anyone doing it.

Pat saying "Well that's only a problem if you use levitation on the plane of water" seemed completely out of step with what the community was doing on plane of water at the time: EVERYONE used levitation and we'd never even HEARD of people getting though it without levitation.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-07 08:34:31 UTC
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
From what I remember on the thread it was someone who did a challenge game
and eschewed levitation for the whole game?
I don't recall such a thread or person.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
In any case I remember that you were amazed that this person got through
the plane of water and air without levitation, as not using a source of
levitation on these planes was unheard of (both by you and me) and we'd
never heard of anyone doing it.
I don't know how one is able to pass Air without levitation; okay there's
the actio=reactio method, but man, that's tough! So effectively you *need*
levitation in practise.

But as I said; definitely *not* for the Plane of Water; I do the Plane of
Water generally without levitating from bubble to bubble. I always stay
*inside* the bubbles (whether my levitation from the Plane of Air is still
effective or not).
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Pat saying "Well that's only a problem if you use levitation on the plane
of water" seemed completely out of step with what the community was doing
on plane of water at the time: EVERYONE used levitation and we'd never even
HEARD of people getting though it without levitation.
I cannot speak for the community, but that "everyone" would do it is
obviously a misobservation. I've seen folks on NAO that shortcut through
the water with levitation, and others (like me) who don't.

Janis
jim in austin
2018-07-07 12:41:58 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
I don't know how one is able to pass Air without levitation; okay there's
the actio=reactio method, but man, that's tough! So effectively you *need*
levitation in practise.
Technically, flying isn't levitation...
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-07 13:23:22 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
I don't know how one is able to pass Air without levitation; okay there's
the actio=reactio method, but man, that's tough! So effectively you *need*
levitation in practise.
Technically, flying isn't levitation...
I was puzzled about but what are you trying to say here. But I suppose you
want to point out that there's the option to polyself and become a flying
creature or ride a pet flying steed? True. So you don't "need" levitation
in this sense.

Janis
jim in austin
2018-07-07 13:38:40 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by jim in austin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
I don't know how one is able to pass Air without levitation; okay there's
the actio=reactio method, but man, that's tough! So effectively you *need*
levitation in practise.
Technically, flying isn't levitation...
I was puzzled about but what are you trying to say here. But I suppose you
want to point out that there's the option to polyself and become a flying
creature or ride a pet flying steed? True. So you don't "need" levitation
in this sense.
Exactly. There was some mention upthread of ascending "without levitating"
and I thought I would be a bit pedantic =)
Pat Rankin
2018-07-12 22:07:22 UTC
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On Friday, July 6, 2018 at 4:52:22 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
[....]
Post by Janis Papanagnou
d) my doubts whether I understood Pat's statement corrrectly was whether
it is now necessary to levitate while inside the air bubbled on the Plane
of Water, or whether you otherwise get a similar tumbling effect as you
get on the Plane of Air when you don't levitate.
You understood what I said, but what I said about air bubbles was wrong.
You don't tumble in place without levitation, and levitation provides no
benefit when moving on/in the Plane of Water.

I was misremembering about how moving in an air bubble on that level
puts you in a different spot than the direction you tried to move. You
are actually moving to the designated spot, but that spot itself moves
because the air bubble is moving all the time, so it just appears that
moving to the right actually made you go up and so forth. That's not
similar to the Plane of Air where without levitation you often stay put,
but when you don't, you do move in the specified direction.
Jorgen Grahn
2018-07-17 23:12:53 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Can't levitate on plane of water. If you get knocked out of the air
bubble it will blank your potions and scrolls unless protected by
greased bag (1 round) or by oilskin bag (now you need an oilskin bag or
risk ruining important potions scrolls)
That level is harder if you relied on levitation, but no different if you didn't.
Stop it. I have only heard of ONE person on here (and even Janis was
incredulous) who tackled the plane of water without levitation. Everyone
uses levitation on the plane of water.
Since my name is mentioned and since I'm not quite sure what's expressed
here, let me clarify my position; a) [in NH-343] I never used levitation
to shortcut the way between air bubbles, b) it feels to me like cheating,
Same here. I didn't know levitation does anything useful in Water.

I don't think that makes the game harder. Floating around in bubbles
takes time, but is IME safe. I see it as the Plane of Holiday on the
Beach :-)

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
jim in austin
2018-07-18 00:04:48 UTC
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I see it as the Plane of Holiday on the Beach :-)
I see it as the Plane of Waiting for the Next Bus...
Jorgen Grahn
2018-07-24 20:03:09 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
I see it as the Plane of Holiday on the Beach :-)
I see it as the Plane of Waiting for the Next Bus...
The other week, I waited for thirteen hours for a bus which never
appeared ... so I know the feeling.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-18 15:54:22 UTC
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[ Plane of Water ]
I don't think that makes the game harder. Floating around in bubbles
takes time, but is IME safe. I see it as the Plane of Holiday on the
Beach :-)
I'm a bit less relieved there; without reflecting wall it's uncomfortable
if the Wizard (even more so a double-trouble version of him) appears there.

WRT safety you must be careful if the bubbles are extremely small and some
eels or krakens around.

Janis
Jorgen Grahn
2018-07-24 09:58:04 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
[ Plane of Water ]
I don't think that makes the game harder. Floating around in bubbles
takes time, but is IME safe. I see it as the Plane of Holiday on the
Beach :-)
I'm a bit less relieved there; without reflecting wall it's uncomfortable
if the Wizard (even more so a double-trouble version of him) appears there.
I think I've been lucky and not had Rodney appear on Water. I agree
that would be a pain; I tend to /oDeath him against walls, too.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Jukka Lahtinen
2018-07-08 17:56:08 UTC
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by Pat Rankin
But that being said, I agree that 3.6.x is harder than 3.4.3. But not nearly
so much harder as to stick with old bugs which were fixed years ago when
you could be encountering shiny new ones.. :-}
You and I may disagree as to what is a "bug" and what is a "feature".
While you may disagree in how things should be, I strongly believe Pat
has a better insight about what is intended behavior (a feature) and
what is a bug.
--
Jukka Lahtinen
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-06 07:35:47 UTC
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
Plane of fire is much harder. There's smoke and vision obfuscations.
A nice atmospheric and gameplay change, IMO, and at that stage a fair change.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Armor has been changed so MC3 is very hard to get, and MC3 along with magic
resistance is even harder to get. [...]
Yes, this is an important factor.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Credic cloning is near impossible pets only pick up one piece of gold.
(Oh, I missed that change in the reports here.)
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Alchemy is much harder and you won't convert all potions in the stack only a few.
Well, alchemy might have needed a change with those huge stacks it's quite
abusive, I'd say.

(Personally I don't like the implementation defining stack size limits. I'd
have preferred to have huge stacks explode with higher probability than
small stacks (with safe minimum and unsafe maximum values similar to armor
and weapon enchantments) so that it's in the responsibility of the player
how much risk or how much safety one wants, but anyway.)
Post by m***@yahoo.com
There's a minetown variant with NO SHOPS. SUCKS!
For atmosphere it's great, but I agree that it can be very frustrating.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Wizard can attack you before you've even woken him up! (I discovered this)
Don't know about NH-36x, but IIRC this was possible also in NH-343, e.g. if
a mind-flayer hits him with a mental attack. (But wasn't there also a bug in
3.6.0 that got fixed in 3.6.1 ?)
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Can't levitate on plane of water.
This I consider a fix of a bug. Even though I knew that it's possible to do
[in NH-343] I always abstained from doing it; to me it feels like cheating.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Astral plane is enlarged 75% of the time and there's more monsters and a
farther distance to go.
Really? - I thought the entry areas were larger but not the paths you have
to go.

Janis
Pat Rankin
2018-07-05 23:56:45 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by Jorgen Grahn
Post by m***@yahoo.com
3.6.0 is a much more difficult game in my opinion.
[...]
What makes it super difficult compared to 3.4.3? I know Elbereth has
been nerfed a bit (but I never relied on it anyway and don't know how
much others did).
I don't realy know the new version, but two changes I've heard about
certainly make a significant difference; Elbereth (for those of us
who use it), and the timing changes of monster attacks.
I think "much more difficult" is an exaggeration here. Even so, 3.6.1
changed both of those features to be easier (than 3.6.0, not than 3.4.3).
The so-called "double tap" when a monster gets to hit twice (usually
because it didn't get a chance on the prior turn rather than because the
speed tweak made it move faster) is gone, and Elbereth only scuffs if you
make an attack. You can rest/heal with moderate safety as long as you
like (except that range attackers are still dangerous, and while resting,
more monsters are likely to arrive, but neither of those aspects is any
different from 3.4.3). In 3.6.1, like in 3.6.0 and unlike in 3.4.3, an Elbereth
engraving with an item--instead of you--placed on top of it won't scare
monsters, so that made things harder if you were used to IMHO abusing
Elbereth....
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Besides these
general working changes there's also some specific changes; Sokoban
difficulty comes to mind,
This is only an issue if you have been rushing to Sokoban because it was
easier than was ever intended. And only the zoo room on the last level is
significantly impacted by the 'depth fix'.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
and (I think) the demon lairs are also more
challenging, and for the advanced players Astral (level topology
I don't think that those have changed at all (aside from not being able to
rely on Elbereth at those locations).
Post by Janis Papanagnou
and the rider's behaviour).
Letting them push their way through (swap places with) intervening monsters
will no doubt have an impact. But they can still be killed in very few hits.
If you can make it that far, you ought to be capable of dealing with them.

You've left out pudding farming (perhaps because you choose not to take
advantage of it). You can still gain a lot of experience but you can't gain a
ton of items or any sacrifice fodder. But saying that the game is harder when
something which made it too easy gets addressed sounds like whinging to me.

On the flip side, 3.6.1 includes functional status highlighting (one of the
reasons sometimes given for sticking with NAO's 3.4.3). It definitely needs
work (screen display can become noticeably slow, particularly when using
big fonts on Windows console) which has already been done for to-be-3.6.2
(and is accessible via the git repository at github and sourceforge).
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-06 07:17:12 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by m***@yahoo.com
3.6.0 is a much more difficult game in my opinion.
What makes it super difficult compared to 3.4.3? [...]
I don't realy know the new version, but two changes I've heard about
certainly make a significant difference; [...]
I think "much more difficult" is an exaggeration here.
I agree that "super difficult" and "much more" may be [subjectively]
inappropriate words. I think, though, that "significant", the word I
used, is appropriate; I expect the monster timing adjustment to make
a significant difference because (IME) the early game is often very
hard to survive - less with dwarven valkyries, more with gnomish
archeologists - and with the non-fighter classes you are often at the
edge between life and death, and any small tweak can easily change
your life-status.
Post by Pat Rankin
[...] In 3.6.1, like in 3.6.0 and unlike in 3.4.3, an Elbereth
engraving with an item--instead of you--placed on top of it won't scare
monsters, so that made things harder if you were used to IMHO abusing
Elbereth....
(Interesting; I thought, given how it worked, it would have been a
deliberate implementation. The behaviour contributed to the tactical
depth of NH, and I think it's a pity that this factor is now gone.)
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Besides these
general working changes there's also some specific changes; Sokoban
difficulty comes to mind,
This is only an issue if you have been rushing to Sokoban because it was
easier than was ever intended. And only the zoo room on the last level is
significantly impacted by the 'depth fix'.
It certainly was a fix, but that change still makes it more difficult,
and having or not having the prize is still a big factor.

I don't agree WRT the intermediate levels; given that you have to spend
much time on these levels quite a lot of monsters are created here, and
even in the NH-343 version it could become tight (depending on role and
found equipment, of course).

The "rush to Sokoban" is also something I would not qualify that way, for
two reasons; the death statistics for the mines are about the same as for
Sokoban - to my surprise mines are only marginally more deadly [NH-343].
In NH-343 - I don't have a feeling for NH-36x - it's a tactical or even
strategical decision which path to choose, you have advantages here and
there, and drawbacks. And while the prize is something very important the
guaranteed wands (and rings) is also something that often significantly
changes your game; it influences my decision for Sokoban even if I don't
intend - be it that I can't handle it [343, and more so in 36x] or that I
don't need the prize because I found it already elsewhere - to do the zoo.
Post by Pat Rankin
You've left out pudding farming (perhaps because you choose not to take
advantage of it). You can still gain a lot of experience but you can't gain a
ton of items or any sacrifice fodder. But saying that the game is harder when
something which made it too easy gets addressed sounds like whinging to me.
Yes, farming allows abuse. I know it changed, but didn't mention it for the
reason you said[*]. But farming is also not always safe; puddings are quite
dangerous, and the more early you tackle them the more difficult. I think
that the (necessary) changes in pudding farming is a straw man argument here.
Post by Pat Rankin
On the flip side, 3.6.1 includes functional status highlighting (one of the
reasons sometimes given for sticking with NAO's 3.4.3). [...]
UI changes can be very helpful, and they will certainly affect your success
winning a game; if it was previously badly designed. But it doesn't affect
the _game difficulty_, so it's IMO hardly an argument on the pros side if we
consider changes in the game difficulty context. (It *is* an argument to use
the new version. But also not a very good one if we compare vanilla 3.6.x
with NAO 3.4.3 which already implemented significant improvements.)

Janis

[*] Even though, to be honest, I used it in a case where I blew up all my
loot in a bag of holding and needed to get back the basics to be able to
ascend; while farming is boring it was nontheless less boring than waiting
for regular death-drops.
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-06 21:53:19 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
I think "much more difficult" is an exaggeration here.
Please read subsequent post. I amended to:

"It's not super super harder, it's just a level of difficulty harder. "
Post by Pat Rankin
engraving with an item--instead of you--placed on top of it won't scare
monsters, so that made things harder if you were used to IMHO abusing
Elbereth....
Ok. Couple things.

I don't agree with the term "abusing". What does "abusing" mean. Does it mean "doing something great to huge strategic effect?" Does it mean "doing things in the game the developers didn't sus out correctly". Does it mean "winning and being awesome?"

I don't agree with the usage of the term. I don't think certain things are "abusive" I think they are "ingenious." Whoever first thought of using helm of opposite alignment so you wouldn't have to go to a different altar is a freaking genius. I do not consider that in any way abusive. That's just smart playing.

You can say "unbalanced" because it unbalances the game. Is the game too easy with the helm? Ok. Then you need to change the helm because you've made the game too easy. I don't think the game is too easy with the helm. The helm of opposite alignment is extremely rare, it's even hard to get from a polypile, and you usually burn a wish on it.
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Besides these
general working changes there's also some specific changes; Sokoban
difficulty comes to mind,
This is only an issue if you have been rushing to Sokoban because it was
easier than was ever intended. And only the zoo room on the last level is
significantly impacted by the 'depth fix'.
Nope. The claim that Sokobon was "easier than intended" is rejected. I don't agree that the developers meant Sokobon to be harder and accidentally made it easier. Sorry, I don't buy that. Please provide some sort of evidence for that.

Sokobon has been made harder, period. It's not clear that they ever "intended" sokobon to be harder than it is.
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
and (I think) the demon lairs are also more
challenging, and for the advanced players Astral (level topology
I don't think that those have changed at all (aside from not being able to
rely on Elbereth at those locations).
Post by Janis Papanagnou
and the rider's behaviour).
Letting them push their way through (swap places with) intervening monsters
will no doubt have an impact. But they can still be killed in very few hits.
If you can make it that far, you ought to be capable of dealing with them.
You "ought" to aside as to your subjective judgements, astral is way harder. WAY harder.
Post by Pat Rankin
You've left out pudding farming (perhaps because you choose not to take
advantage of it). You can still gain a lot of experience but you can't gain a
ton of items or any sacrifice fodder. But saying that the game is harder when
something which made it too easy gets addressed sounds like whinging to me.
But your assumption is that pudding farming made the game too easy. I reject that claim. I don't think pudding farming made the game too easy. I think pudding farming, is difficult, tedious and can only be done under the right circumstances, and with a lot of turns, work, and risk (especially the risk that comes with getting lulled into a false sense of security, or your mind getting bored and not paying attention.

Your claim that pudding farming made the game "too easy" is hereby rejected.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-06 22:22:48 UTC
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A typical suggestion for playing Nethack, to not get into trouble, is:
"Try to slow down." - I think it's applicable with posts as well. ;-)
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by Pat Rankin
This is only an issue if you have been rushing to Sokoban because it was
easier than was ever intended. And only the zoo room on the last level
is significantly impacted by the 'depth fix'.
Nope. The claim that Sokobon was "easier than intended" is rejected. I
don't agree that the developers meant Sokobon to be harder and accidentally
made it easier. Sorry, I don't buy that. Please provide some sort of
evidence for that.
Pat Rankin is a member of the Devteam since I can think of, for decades.
If he doesn't know, who else could give evidence that you would accept?

The explanation has not been given here, but had been posted in the past.
Effectively it was that the more you advance the more difficult it should
become; not easier. If Sokoban (if, say, entering it from level 6) spans
from level 5 to 2, the first level should have level 7 difficulty, the
last one level 10 difficulty. It's hard to believe (for me) that Sokoban
should get easier the farther you reach.

Of course we can believe what we like. But if you have some evidence (or
just a resonable explanation) to believe that it should get easier, I'd
curious to hear.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Sokobon has been made harder, period. It's not clear that they ever
"intended" sokobon to be harder than it is.
"They"? - For me Pat's word is reliable enough, to say the least.

Janis
forbincol
2018-08-04 00:56:04 UTC
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Elbereth in 3.4.3 makes the game EASY for a player who is willing to, yes, "abuse" it.

This is just my opinon, but using helm of opposite alignment, regardless of version, to me is no better than escaping in celestial disgrace.
You've played this entire 40k turn or whatever game role playing a <insert alignment> player, and trying to retrieve the amulet for a particular God. Then on the very last turn, because you saved a wish, you can "ascend" on the wrong altar? Please.

Sokoban indeed got harder, but it clearly was a design flaw in 3.4.3 for the branch to get EASIER as it progressed, and this was fixed. As mentioned before, people took advantage of the monsters and zoo being weaker as you move up. Was someone really arguing that it was supposed to be like that?

The biggest changes to the game which actually made it harder for people who aren't cheating to begin with are the MC changes, and that Rodney will now steal other role's quest artifacts so you are risking losing your magic resistance (and Rodney now having it in the case of PYEC) if you rely on that for your MR.
It makes it harder to juggle Reflection and MR, especially for spellcasters who would like to wear a robe in cloak spot or Eye in amulet slot.

The water plane is harder I guess, but again it now needs to be played the way it seems it was intended (staying in the bubbles)


Like someone said above, a lot of the complaints about the game being "harder" are from spoiled 3.4.3 players who were taking advantage of holes in the game which have been fixed.

Adjust your strategy!
I'm grateful I never relied (or really even knew all about) Elbereth in 3.4.3. I probably wouldn't be able to play 3.6.1 either
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-04 07:17:29 UTC
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Post by forbincol
Elbereth in 3.4.3 makes the game EASY for a player who is willing to, yes, "abuse" it.
Given the restrictions that specifically early characters have, and all the
uncertainties associated with it I cannot see any abuse if using it in NH343.
Post by forbincol
This is just my opinon, but using helm of opposite alignment, regardless of
version, to me is no better than escaping in celestial disgrace. You've
played this entire 40k turn or whatever game role playing a <insert
alignment> player, and trying to retrieve the amulet for a particular God.
Then on the very last turn, because you saved a wish, you can "ascend" on
the wrong altar? Please.
Some use it even before to have an easier homerun as (originally) lawfuls.

The helm is there to, yes, change alignment. You have significant drawbacks
if you use it earlier. - Is it a "bug" that it is there at all in the first
place? Where else would one use it sensibly than during the homerun/endgame?
The helm is there to use it. No?

WRT the goal; I don't care much of "my" god. There's some technical effects
of having one or the other alignment. Considering it as some ethical (or RPG)
style of playing is of course every player's own decision.
Post by forbincol
The water plane is harder I guess, but again it now needs to be played the
way it seems it was intended (staying in the bubbles)
I'm not sure about any "intention" about how it was designed in NH343; I'd
rather think that they either haven't thought about the consequences of the
technical decision of water walking on the Plane of Water, or they didn't
care to implement a technical special case, or they just didn't care about
that side effect once players reach that far. (We should keep in mind, that
nowadays much more players reach that far than 15+ years ago; it might have
been no issue at that time.)

Anyway, to me shortcutting water always felt wrong. I don't mind the change.

Playing the devil's advocate; was levitating over lava on the Plane of Fire
also an undesired shortcut? Should we rather take the longer way around the
lava? (At least Fire has now an interesting change with those gases.)
Post by forbincol
Like someone said above, a lot of the complaints about the game being
"harder" are from spoiled 3.4.3 players who were taking advantage of holes
in the game which have been fixed.
We should differentiate here. The early game, if playing weaker roles/races,
often depends on lucky circumstances to not die early. Making the early game
harder is something that many folks here thus considered a bad decision. The
post-Castle game, OTOH, is regularly considered as having too few challenges.

Reiterating here on your intruductory Elbereth point; for purposes of balance
I'd rather have seen it a more appropriate change to make Elbereth engravings
(in the dust) more reliable for those characters that are weaker and cannot
rely on their early game fighter bonus, say, by making it more depending on
Dex and/or Int, and having Str be counterproductive. That would balance the
roles/races a bit and not make it harder for roles that are disadvantaged
anyway. Consequences of such a design would be a more balanced early game
and more unreliability using it in the advanced game where characters are
converging anyway towards maximum stats; you'd solve two issues that way
instead of just "nerfing" it for all and everywhere.
Post by forbincol
Adjust your strategy! I'm grateful I never relied (or really even knew all
about) Elbereth in 3.4.3. I probably wouldn't be able to play 3.6.1 either
Yes, strategies (or rather tactics) have to be adjusted. My hopes would be
that the pluralism of available tactics is now not streamlined to just one
way of playing.

Janis
Eric Pozharski
2018-08-04 15:56:14 UTC
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with <pk3ju9$hmn$***@news-1.m-online.net> Janis Papanagnou wrote:

*SKIP*
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Some use it even before to have an easier homerun as (originally) lawfuls.
The helm is there to, yes, change alignment. You have significant
drawbacks if you use it earlier. - Is it a "bug" that it is there at
all in the first place? Where else would one use it sensibly than
during the homerun/endgame? The helm is there to use it. No?
WRT the goal; I don't care much of "my" god. There's some technical
effects of having one or the other alignment. Considering it as some
ethical (or RPG) style of playing is of course every player's own
decision.
Please excuse my ignorance (I just did another run through The Wiki and
haven't found anything new) and boldness (I'm doing slashem). Back to
the subject.

I'd converted altars twice (by accident). And I'm still puzzled -- why
should I care about co-aligned god? Only effects I can imagine are
water praying and helm of opposite alignment. Is there anything else
I'm missing?

*CUT*
--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-04 17:57:35 UTC
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Post by Eric Pozharski
I'd converted altars twice (by accident). And I'm still puzzled -- why
should I care about co-aligned god? Only effects I can imagine are
water praying and helm of opposite alignment. Is there anything else
I'm missing?
Not sure what you mean by "care about co-aligned god". There are gods
for every alignment, and your alignment determines your pantheon. So
you always have a god that is co-aligned, whatever alignment you have,
and even if you switch alignment you will again have a co-aligned god
(but of course another one than before); use the Ctrl-X command to get
information about that.

A few things that may show some more alignment aspects...

As you noticed you can #pray on co-aligned altars for holy water, or
#sacrifice corpses (but beware of sacrificing co-aligned unicorns, or
pets) to obtain an artifact weapon on occasion.

In a co-aligned temple you won't be harassed by monsters, they will
stay outside while you're in the temple, so you can heal yourself or do
other things undisturbed.

It's probably not strictly or directly related to your god, but throwing
valuable gems at a co-aligned unicorn increases your luck. (As already
mentioned above with offerings there's some relation between your god,
your alignment, luck, unicorns, your god's anger (i.e. you angering him).

Most critical (in NH-343; don't know about fixes in NH-36x), if you
convert yourself instead of the altar you may get locked out from the
quest, thus the game could become unwinnable. (And a helm of opposite
alignment won't even help in that case.)

And depending on your alignment different monsters may react peacefully
to your presence.

There's some more special cases like getting Excalibur for lawfuls, but
that is not (technically speaken: not directly) related to your god.

I may have forgot some more alignment issues.

Janis
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-04 18:03:04 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by Eric Pozharski
I'd converted altars twice (by accident). And I'm still puzzled -- why
should I care about co-aligned god? Only effects I can imagine are
water praying and helm of opposite alignment. Is there anything else
I'm missing?
[...]
A few things that may show some more alignment aspects...
As you noticed you can #pray on co-aligned altars for holy water, or
#sacrifice corpses (but beware of sacrificing co-aligned unicorns, or
pets) to obtain an artifact weapon on occasion.
I forgot an essential information here; artifact weapons may have an
alignment, and you will only get co-aligned or unaligned artifacts from
sacrifices on the altar of your god. So some artifact weapons are ruled
out (unless you switch alignment, but that is usually not recommended to
do).

Janis
Eric Pozharski
2018-08-05 15:12:25 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by Eric Pozharski
I'd converted altars twice (by accident). And I'm still puzzled --
why should I care about co-aligned god? Only effects I can imagine
are water praying and helm of opposite alignment. Is there anything
else I'm missing?
Not sure what you mean by "care about co-aligned god".
I'm terribly sorry about this mess. My perception was distorted by
notion of "unaligned" (Moloch; because I've reached past Sokoban only
twice it's the least my concern). I'm wondering about cross-aligned
gods. Maybe it's important, I just can't figure it out.

*CUT*
--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom
David Damerell
2018-08-05 19:32:00 UTC
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Post by Eric Pozharski
I'm terribly sorry about this mess. My perception was distorted by
notion of "unaligned" (Moloch; because I've reached past Sokoban only
twice it's the least my concern). I'm wondering about cross-aligned
gods. Maybe it's important, I just can't figure it out.
You are unlikely to get much information, in spite of Janis's efforts,
without stating your actual question.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Thursday, July.
Tomorrow will be Friday, July.
Eric Pozharski
2018-08-06 08:03:38 UTC
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Post by David Damerell
You are unlikely to get much information, in spite of Janis's efforts,
without stating your actual question.
Well, actual question is in the subject: effects of angering
cross-aligned gods.
--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom
David Damerell
2018-08-07 11:53:37 UTC
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Post by Eric Pozharski
Post by David Damerell
You are unlikely to get much information, in spite of Janis's efforts,
without stating your actual question.
Well, actual question is in the subject: effects of angering
cross-aligned gods.
You can't anger a cross-aligned god. The Subject contains no question.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Saturday, July - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Sunday, July - a weekend.
Eric Pozharski
2018-08-08 07:57:01 UTC
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Post by David Damerell
Post by Eric Pozharski
Post by David Damerell
You are unlikely to get much information, in spite of Janis's
efforts, without stating your actual question.
Well, actual question is in the subject: effects of angering
cross-aligned gods.
You can't anger a cross-aligned god.
I did it twice by converting cross-aligned altar.
--
Torvalds' goal for Linux is very simple: World Domination
Stallman's goal for GNU is even simpler: Freedom
forbincol
2018-08-12 04:52:50 UTC
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On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 1:33:28 PM UTC-4, Eric Pozharski wrote:
merun/endgame? The helm is there to use it. No?
Post by Eric Pozharski
I'd converted altars twice (by accident). And I'm still puzzled -- why
should I care about co-aligned god? Only effects I can imagine are
water praying and helm of opposite alignment. Is there anything else
I'm missing?
Well, water praying (for me) is a huge deal. I wouldn't know how get through the game without holy water.
But the other two things you can do on a co-aligned altar is sacrifice corpses and pray:

Sacrificing corpses gets you in good with your god. If god is mad at you, you are able to redeem yourself. If you are in good standing, but recently prayed or was granted a gift (or a wish!) it shortens your prayer count until you have a feeling of reconciliation, after which it is safe to pray (anywhere) again. Future sacrifices increase your luck, and have the potential to grant you a gift of an artifact weapon.

Prayer on an altar works differently than regular prayer. You can be granted favors such as uncursing items, increasing max hitpoints, protection (AC), being given intrinsics you are missing (speed, stealth, see invisible, etc.) And my personal favorite, spellbooks!!!
You can also be crowned. Which seems like a good thing (and can be) but it increases your prayer timeout for the rest of the game so, depending on role
some players try to avoid it by intentionally lowering their luck or alignment just enough before altar praying.

I didn't learn this aspect of the game for a long time. I never used prayer much at all, and it turns out I was missing out big time! I used to think converting altars was some super-risky thing and I think I had it confused with converting alignment (which you can also do by sacrificing at the wrong altar) which if done at the wrong time can make your game un-winable.

It turns out praying regularly on your own altar is a very good thing. Even if you're not a spellcaster, you will gain protection and hitpoints and intrinsics. But the spellbooks thing was a gamechanger when I learned about it.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-12 07:10:48 UTC
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Post by forbincol
Well, water praying (for me) is a huge deal. I wouldn't know how get
through the game without holy water.
I recall times where I was unaware of water prayers; it's no issue to
ascend anyway, but you need one randomly found potion of holy water at
least to create more. Nowadays I wouldn't want to abstain from that
option, it's tactically too valuable.
Post by forbincol
Prayer on an altar works differently than regular prayer. You can be
granted favors such as uncursing items, increasing max hitpoints,
protection (AC), being given intrinsics you are missing (speed, stealth,
see invisible, etc.) And my personal favorite, spellbooks!!!
These things (but water prayer) may also happen without altars (if I
am not completely mistaken).
Post by forbincol
You can also
be crowned. Which seems like a good thing (and can be) but it increases
your prayer timeout for the rest of the game so, depending on role some
players try to avoid it by intentionally lowering their luck or alignment
just enough before altar praying.
It's especially good if you're playing a role with chaotic alignment;
getting Stormbringer reliably is often a nice option in the chotic's
artifact weapons arsenal. Yet more important are the basic intrinsics
you get that way; lacking poison resistance, or sleep, or cold, or shock
can often be fatal early (or even mid game), and getting all with one
prayer is a great boon.

Janis
jim in austin
2018-08-12 14:52:01 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by forbincol
Well, water praying (for me) is a huge deal. I wouldn't know how get
through the game without holy water.
I recall times where I was unaware of water prayers; it's no issue to
ascend anyway, but you need one randomly found potion of holy water at
least to create more. Nowadays I wouldn't want to abstain from that
option, it's tactically too valuable.
If you are lucky enough to stumble across a blessed scroll of remove
curse and have a means of confusing yourself, it is possible to
manufacture both holy water and unholy water simultaneously without
use of an altar or prayer. Tedious, but possible, and it only needs to
happen once...
Corbin Telepathic
2018-08-12 18:00:40 UTC
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The objective is to get the booze at the bottom of the dungeon so you're not playing right if you have none. All the other locations are a result of memory leak and data corruption
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-08-04 18:08:48 UTC
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On Sat, 4 Aug 2018 09:17:29 +0200, Janis Papanagnou wrote:

[helm of opposite alignment]
Post by Janis Papanagnou
The helm is there to, yes, change alignment. You have significant drawbacks
if you use it earlier. - Is it a "bug" that it is there at all in the first
place? Where else would one use it sensibly than during the homerun/endgame?
The helm is there to use it. No?
Out of curiosity: Were do you use gauntlets or boots of fumbling? ;-)

For me, the helm of opposite alignment is just an item that prevents trying
on every available (special) helmet without proper identification. If I find
one, I never keep it. (For endgame or any other purpose.) Like forbincol, I
don't regard a game really "won" by offering the amulet to the "wrong" god.
Demigodhood is a /reward/ and not the /aim/ in my playing style. Although
cheating seems (at least) to be consistent with chaotics, a /real/ chaotic
wouldn't want to sit on the lawful side of the demigod table for all
eternity. - That would be like hell forever...
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Playing the devil's advocate; was levitating over lava on the Plane of Fire
also an undesired shortcut? Should we rather take the longer way around the
lava? (At least Fire has now an interesting change with those gases.)
On the plane of fire I about always wear fireproof waterwalking boots.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
post-Castle game, OTOH, is regularly considered as having too few challenges.
Too long and too recurring. Wide corridors are a start. More diversity in
dungeon creation and more (optional or required) sub-quests would be good.
Mindless monster-slashing of more and more powerful monsters or more "need
to be genocided" classes wouldn't be my favorite changes. I wouldn't mind
tough adversaries on (especially optional) subquests, though...
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Reiterating here on your intruductory Elbereth point; for purposes of balance
I'd rather have seen it a more appropriate change to make Elbereth engravings
(in the dust) more reliable for those characters that are weaker and cannot
rely on their early game fighter bonus, say, by making it more depending on
Dex and/or Int, and having Str be counterproductive. That would balance the
roles/races a bit and not make it harder for roles that are disadvantaged
anyway. Consequences of such a design would be a more balanced early game
and more unreliability using it in the advanced game where characters are
converging anyway towards maximum stats; you'd solve two issues that way
instead of just "nerfing" it for all and everywhere.
Not being an Elbereth using player (except for rare exceptions), I don't
really mind how it is implemented. I don't think, though, that sth. that
so clearly seems to be linked on experience and skill (reiterating makes
writing easier) should get harder when advancing. To be consistent /and/
still make it harder, there could be more of the advanced monsters that
just ignore Elbereth. (Or get used to it, when nothing too bad happened
from that space for a couple of turns...)

BeAr
--
===========================================================================
= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-04 19:30:28 UTC
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Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by Janis Papanagnou
[...]
Out of curiosity: Were do you use gauntlets or boots of fumbling? ;-)
For me, the helm of opposite alignment is just an item that prevents trying
on every available (special) helmet without proper identification.
Those boots and gauntlets of fumbling I use only for polypiling. (There
might be other creative applications like, say, providing them to hostile
intelligent monsters so that they wear them and lose turns during attacks.
But I never did bother to try that out.) (The helm I do use occasionally.)
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
If I find
one, I never keep it. (For endgame or any other purpose.) Like forbincol, I
don't regard a game really "won" by offering the amulet to the "wrong" god.
Demigodhood is a /reward/ and not the /aim/ in my playing style.
The primary achievement is to survive the game, ideally not by escaping it,
and technically it is finished by the offering. Mind, you don't leave the
dungeons in "celestial disgrace" if alignments match; draw your conclusions.
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Although
cheating seems (at least) to be consistent with chaotics, a /real/ chaotic
wouldn't want to sit on the lawful side of the demigod table for all
eternity. - That would be like hell forever...
Erm, "cheating"? - You don't cheat your god; you are "free" to choose your
alignment. And there's to my best knowledge no place where it is defined
that your finishing alignment shall match your starting alignment. (And,
of course, it's specifically also no "game cheating" since it's obviously
a feature.)

WRT your role playing "ethical" (sort of) argument for chaotics; once when
I did the hard lawful homerun (with many throwbacks!) I had the HoOA but
did not use it to make the homerun easier. But when reaching Astral at
the chaotic altar I thought (and #-commented so in-game); "hey, I killed
thousands of monsters, time to face my real destiny", and changed pantheon.
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by Janis Papanagnou
post-Castle game, OTOH, is regularly considered as having too few challenges.
Too long and too recurring. Wide corridors are a start. More diversity in
dungeon creation and more (optional or required) sub-quests would be good.
Yep. (Maybe even also in the upper dungeons.)
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
[...], there could be more of the advanced monsters that
just ignore Elbereth. (Or get used to it, when nothing too bad happened
from that space for a couple of turns...)
I think these are sensible implementation options.

Janis
Pat Rankin
2018-08-04 23:14:08 UTC
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On Saturday, August 4, 2018 at 12:30:30 PM UTC-7, Janis wrote:
[ didn't use a helm of opposite alignment to make reaching the final ]
[ level easier ]
Post by Janis Papanagnou
But when reaching Astral at
the chaotic altar I thought (and #-commented so in-game); "hey, I killed
thousands of monsters, time to face my real destiny", and changed pantheon.
You get a score bonus for ascending. In 3.6.x, that bonus is less if you
offer the Amulet to the wrong god. Ascension scores don't mean much
to most players (who either rarely get that far or know how to inflate the
score arbitrarily), but it is an indication that you're expected to fulfill the
mission described on turn 1:

| Your god[ess] <god-name> seeks to possess the Amulet, and with
| it to gain deserved ascendance over the other gods.
|
| You, a newly trained <level-1-rank-title-for-your-role>, have been
| heralded from birth as the instrument of <god-name>. You are
| destined to recover the Amulet for your deity, or die in the
| attempt. Your hour of destiny has come. For the sake
| of us all: Go bravely with <god-name>!

That was introduced in 3.1.0. I'm not sure whether the wording
has ever changed but the gist of the message definitely has not.
(I've reformatted it slightly here; that's not a wording change.)

Getting all the way to the end and then giving the Amulet to one
of your god's rivals is not exactly fulfilling that mission. Using
OPTIONS=noLegacy
to suppress the mission statement doesn't change the intent of
that mission....
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-05 09:57:53 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
[ didn't use a helm of opposite alignment to make reaching the final ]
[ level easier ]
Post by Janis Papanagnou
But when reaching Astral at
the chaotic altar I thought (and #-commented so in-game); "hey, I killed
thousands of monsters, time to face my real destiny", and changed pantheon.
[...], but it is an indication that you're expected to fulfill the
| Your god[ess] <god-name> seeks to possess the Amulet, and with
| it to gain deserved ascendance over the other gods.
|
| You, a newly trained <level-1-rank-title-for-your-role>, have been
| heralded from birth as the instrument of <god-name>. You are
| destined to recover the Amulet for your deity, or die in the
| attempt. Your hour of destiny has come. For the sake
| of us all: Go bravely with <god-name>!
[...]
Getting all the way to the end and then giving the Amulet to one
of your god's rivals is not exactly fulfilling that mission.
("of your initial god's rivals" - since changing alignment is possible.)

Granted, I indeed haven't seen that text for decades and certainly forgot
the specific wording (if I had ever considered it in the first place at all).
But even with that text (having been heralded, recover for your deity, and
go bravely with) I'd say it's no contradiction since you are free to change
your alignment, your pantheon.

If that text is (or would be) a strict rule I wonder why it's possible to
win the game with a regular ascension[*] if you have converted.

Inspecting the Guidebook to check the quote below I also find the expressed
goal of the game formulated:

"Your goal is to grab as much treasure as you can, retrieve the Amulet of
Yendor, and escape the Mazes of Menace alive."

No more, no less.

That all said; if keeping your initial alignment has priority the Guidebook
should be adjusted[**], and a pantheon converted ascension implemented as
an invalid ascension. Also some implementation details should be redesigned;
You were piously aligned
Your alignment was 264
after a conversion don't seem to make much sense then, and the distinction
of initial and final alignment (if not a specific NAO feature) in logfiles
seems unnecessary then. Not sure I like such changes, but to be consistent.

Janis

[*] Score bonus is indeed irrelevant as indicator, since it is also described
in the Guidebook as goal that you should grab as much treasure as possible -
also a score enhancer - with you to escape the dungeon. I leave most treasure
back without [hopefully] invalidating my game.

[**] No mention of treasure as a goal to win, but mention of ascension with
your initial alignment intact.
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-08-05 11:37:52 UTC
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[Nethack initial mission statement]
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by Pat Rankin
Getting all the way to the end and then giving the Amulet to one
of your god's rivals is not exactly fulfilling that mission.
("of your initial god's rivals" - since changing alignment is possible.)
No. The initial statement outlines the conditions as they are on game entry:
You were raised and trained to serve a certain god and fulfill a task given
by that deity.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Granted, I indeed haven't seen that text for decades and certainly forgot
the specific wording (if I had ever considered it in the first place at all).
But even with that text (having been heralded, recover for your deity, and
go bravely with) I'd say it's no contradiction since you are free to change
your alignment, your pantheon.
Nethack grants you free choices/will in many aspects. (Which, IMHO, is a
major reason for the fascination of this game.) You choose, whether you
press on fighting or sneaking, whether you have support (pets) or not.
This list goes on and on. It even lets you stray from alignment to your
original god. Like you are free to leave dungeon at any time without
ascending (climb without amulet - which also is a way of finishing the
game without fulfilling the original task), you can also decide to
switch alignment to another god. This way you exert the freedom granted
by the game; but in sense of overall game mechanics you achieve only a
"second class ascension". - Which is now (v3.6.x) also documented by the
ascension score, as Pat pointed out.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
If that text is (or would be) a strict rule I wonder why it's possible to
win the game with a regular ascension[*] if you have converted.
Once again, you read sth. in the texts of others, which wasn't written
there, at all. Neither forbincol, nor I, nor Pat (with his special
expertise) wrote at any point, that ascension with changed alignment
is just exploitation of a bug or sth. like that. Nethack allows such
an ascension and it is up to the player, whether (s)he considers it
a "full one" or a "cheated one", digressing too much from the original
path.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Inspecting the Guidebook to check the quote below I also find the expressed
"Your goal is to grab as much treasure as you can, retrieve the Amulet of
Yendor, and escape the Mazes of Menace alive."
No more, no less.
The Guidebook was first written for a version of Nethack not containing
planes or amulet offering. You just left with the AoY and were being granted
demigodhood by the whole circle of gods for your overall achievements. For
me (and maybe also for the Devteam), the Guidebook was always intended as
some kind of telltale literature. A bards tale, mixing deep truths and
myths. Therefore, later editions of the Guidebook, IMHO, didn't crave for
the most exact explanation of the game mechanics and internals, but for
keeping the gist of being the lore to Nethack, aiming to arouse interest
of novice players.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
[*] Score bonus is indeed irrelevant as indicator, since it is also described
in the Guidebook as goal that you should grab as much treasure as possible -
also a score enhancer - with you to escape the dungeon. I leave most treasure
back without [hopefully] invalidating my game.
Again, you are mistake the Guidebook for a rule book. (Which it is not.)
The bard just tells, that one purpose of the quest is to get rich. Whether
you, personally, see such an aim important, is completely up to you. I
remember discussions in acf, were people started to whack down the whole
dungeon to stones and afterwards converted them to precious stones, just
to carry as much dilithium crystals to ascension, as possible. For these
people, this was a goal worth the effort. And if it made playing Nethack
more fun for them: Fine. Just not for me. And probably also not for most
other players...

BeAr
--
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
===============================================================--(Oops!)===
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-05 15:43:08 UTC
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[...], you can also decide to
switch alignment to another god. This way you exert the freedom granted
by the game; but in sense of overall game mechanics you achieve only a
"second class ascension". - Which is now (v3.6.x) also documented by the
ascension score, as Pat pointed out.
I don't agree here. As I tried to point out, you also get score for other
achievements, most trivially for gold carried to the demigod bar. Points
is nothing that (de)valuates an ascension. Where would you draw the line
between first class, second class, and third class, etc., ascensions?
All this is arbitrary if not codified in game mechanics - and here I mean
not something fuzzy like score, but rather something like the mentioned
celestial disgrace, the denied entry to the demigod bar, or similar.
[...] Nethack allows such
an ascension and it is up to the player, whether (s)he considers it
a "full one" or a "cheated one", digressing too much from the original
path.
Fair enough; if players valuate only their own games, otherwise it's an
issue of debate (as we do here).
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Inspecting the Guidebook to check the quote below I also find the expressed
"Your goal is to grab as much treasure as you can, retrieve the Amulet of
Yendor, and escape the Mazes of Menace alive."
No more, no less.
The Guidebook was first written for a version of Nethack not containing
planes or amulet offering. You just left with the AoY and were being granted
demigodhood by the whole circle of gods for your overall achievements. For
me (and maybe also for the Devteam), the Guidebook was always intended as
some kind of telltale literature.
That's an interesting perception. For me the initial text of the game (the
one that Pat quoted) as well as the chapter "Introduction" in the Guidebook
have both the character of an informal fantasy story, not any formal value.
Besides those chitchat introductions (game and book) the book contains all
the concrete gory technical detail. The only "goal" that's stated here is
the one I quoted. We can agree that one should also not take that goal
too literally, but then it's a difficult to maintain opinion to devaluate
specific ways of ascensions. YMMV.

Janis
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-08-05 17:03:50 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
[...], you can also decide to
switch alignment to another god. This way you exert the freedom granted
by the game; but in sense of overall game mechanics you achieve only a
"second class ascension". - Which is now (v3.6.x) also documented by the
ascension score, as Pat pointed out.
I don't agree here. As I tried to point out, you also get score for other
achievements, most trivially for gold carried to the demigod bar. Points
is nothing that (de)valuates an ascension.
It is a matter of direct comparison: Everything else equal or left out
from analysis, the ascension to demigodhood is rated less, if only
acquired by abandoning faith to your original god. (And disparaging all
the support (s)he probably gave you during your journey.)
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Where would you draw the line between first class, second class, and third
class, etc., ascensions?
Easy: First class is ascension true to your original god, second class is
ascension by betraying your original god, third class is to just escape
without ascension to demigodhood, fourth class is to "die trying" and
fifth is quitting. In this overall evaluation score doesn't matter at all.
It is a completely personal game status summary.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
[...] Nethack allows such
an ascension and it is up to the player, whether (s)he considers it
a "full one" or a "cheated one", digressing too much from the original
path.
Fair enough; if players valuate only their own games, otherwise it's an
issue of debate (as we do here).
When playing Nethack "tournament style", only the outcome matters. While
playing on a level, where striving for conducts seems too dangerous, the
differences in score points for "full" vs. "cheated" ascension will be
the only matters regarded in end game risk evaluation. When achieving
conducts is rewarded, ascending to your original alignment becomes more
important.

IMHO, the highest importance has ascension with the original alignment
for players who don't play with the aim of competing (others / for a
certain score / for conducts), but "living" the fantasy world set up by
Nethack and relish not only its complexity, but also the consistency.

[Guidebook / Initial "legacy" text]
Post by Janis Papanagnou
That's an interesting perception. For me the initial text of the game (the
one that Pat quoted) as well as the chapter "Introduction" in the Guidebook
have both the character of an informal fantasy story, not any formal value.
Besides those chitchat introductions (game and book) the book contains all
the concrete gory technical detail. The only "goal" that's stated here is
the one I quoted. We can agree that one should also not take that goal
too literally, but then it's a difficult to maintain opinion to devaluate
specific ways of ascensions. YMMV.
I really don't see both texts on the same level. While the Guidebook is
an accompanying "bards tale" text, the game initial text (and later on
the quest leader) state clearly the (main) game task of presenting the
amulet to you original deity.

BeAr
--
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
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Jukka Lahtinen
2018-08-05 20:51:17 UTC
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Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Easy: First class is ascension true to your original god, second class is
ascension by betraying your original god, third class is to just escape
without ascension to demigodhood, fourth class is to "die trying" and
fifth is quitting. In this overall evaluation score doesn't matter at all.
It is a completely personal game status summary.
Anyone can escape without ascension by just pressing '<' as the first
move..
--
Jukka Lahtinen
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-08-06 04:03:33 UTC
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Post by Jukka Lahtinen
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Easy: First class is ascension true to your original god, second class is
ascension by betraying your original god, third class is to just escape
without ascension to demigodhood, fourth class is to "die trying" and
fifth is quitting. In this overall evaluation score doesn't matter at all.
It is a completely personal game status summary.
Anyone can escape without ascension by just pressing '<' as the first
move..
Yes. And it certainly is a display of little courage to do so. But the
character will live. I therefore rate escaping higher than "die trying".
"Quit", OTOH, I regard as suicide. Therefore it is rated last. Please
note: My rating derives from the POV of the game (character) and not
from the (outside) player perspective. The latter is of no importance
to me when playing Nethack. I don't strive for the highest score, but
for an interesting game.

BeAr
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
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David Damerell
2018-08-05 19:35:45 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
You get a score bonus for ascending. In 3.6.x, that bonus is less if you
offer the Amulet to the wrong god.
I always thought it should just be a celestial disgrace. The (as you note)
irrelevance of scores means this sends a bit of a mixed message.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Thursday, July.
Tomorrow will be Friday, July.
Yosemite Sam
2018-08-05 19:46:35 UTC
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Post by David Damerell
Post by Pat Rankin
You get a score bonus for ascending. In 3.6.x, that bonus is less if you
offer the Amulet to the wrong god.
I always thought it should just be a celestial disgrace. The (as you note)
irrelevance of scores means this sends a bit of a mixed message.
--
Today is Thursday, July.
Tomorrow will be Friday, July.
You only say scores are irrelevant. No one believes you. You are probably one of the people with low ascension scores who just barely scraped by.
Corbin Telepathic
2018-08-06 00:55:10 UTC
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The goal is quite clear: retrieve all the sake from Mine's End.
David Damerell
2018-08-05 19:33:22 UTC
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Post by forbincol
The biggest changes to the game which actually made it harder for people
who aren't cheating to begin with are the MC changes, and that Rodney
will now steal other role's quest artifacts so you are risking losing
your magic resistance (and Rodney now having it in the case of PYEC) if
you rely on that for your MR.
I agree with the rest of what you wrote, but frankly I always regarded
quartifact-wishing as cheesy anyway. It's a pity it didn't become
impossible.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Distortion Field!
Today is Thursday, July.
Tomorrow will be Friday, July.
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-07 18:44:05 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by Jorgen Grahn
Post by m***@yahoo.com
3.6.0 is a much more difficult game in my opinion.
[...]
What makes it super difficult compared to 3.4.3? I know Elbereth has
been nerfed a bit (but I never relied on it anyway and don't know how
much others did).
I don't realy know the new version, but two changes I've heard about
certainly make a significant difference; Elbereth (for those of us
who use it), and the timing changes of monster attacks.
I think "much more difficult" is an exaggeration here. Even so, 3.6.1
changed both of those features to be easier (than 3.6.0, not than 3.4.3).
Considering that I never ascended a first game after installation of a
new version, before, v3.6.1 must be the easiest version of Nethack ever
released! ;-P Not /too/ easy, though. Lost a couple of subsequent
games, as was to be expected. Quiet a few of them out of stupidity.

One character with >200 hit points and AC around -20 died on an emptied
out level because of reading an unidentified uncursed spellbook. Got
teleported across the whole level right next to an ice troll (which got
its revival just at that moment) and a newly created storm giant. For
the next (long) couple of moves he watched "stunned" (pun intended) his
health going down and recovering; although overall dropping and finally
reaching 0. - Grmpf!!

Noticed in another game, that the RGRN gods are still predictable in
v3.6.1: When reaching top level Sokoban with 4 BOH and no source of
reflection, the outcome still is as it was always in such cases. Grrr.
Okay, possessing 5 bags is better than having none... ;-)
Post by Pat Rankin
On the flip side, 3.6.1 includes functional status highlighting
Yes. Works much better than in v3.6.0 and helps a lot, when one starts
to get tired.

On the downside, I did not find a keyboard handler or setting, which
enabled me to choose "fingertip" from Engraving menu with the <minus>
key, as it always was in past. Hm.

BeAr
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
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Pat Rankin
2018-07-09 18:52:17 UTC
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On Saturday, July 7, 2018 at 11:44:12 AM UTC-7, B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson wrote:
[...]
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by Pat Rankin
On the flip side, 3.6.1 includes functional status highlighting
Yes. Works much better than in v3.6.0 and helps a lot, when one starts
to get tired.
The highlighting code in 3.6.0 wasn't remotely close to being finished
and was left disabled. Enable it at your own risk....
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
On the downside, I did not find a keyboard handler or setting, which
enabled me to choose "fingertip" from Engraving menu with the <minus>
key, as it always was in past. Hm.
That's a bug in the win32 interface. '-' is both a general menu command
to unselect everything (fairly useless in a 'pick one' menu) and also a
specific choice when fingers or hands are appropriate. The tty interface
picks the specific choice if you type '-', the win32 interface unselects
everything (which has no visible effect when there is nothing selected).
That's already been fixed but that fix was after the 3.6.1 release.

You can workaround this by using the search capability (':' menu command)
to type in a string which matches the dash entry. Any matching substring
will suffice provided it doesn't match an earlier entry. Since 'your fingertip'
is first, there is no earlier entry, so 'y' or 'f' or even '-' should work. Using
something distinct to the entry you intend to match, like 'fing' or 'tip' in
this case, is probably a better way to go.
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-09 21:13:31 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
The highlighting code in 3.6.0 wasn't remotely close to being finished
and was left disabled. Enable it at your own risk....
Yes I did. And it wasn't too bad for a first "alpha" implementation.
Coloring in v3.6.1 advanced to a real new level, of course.
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
On the downside, I did not find a keyboard handler or setting, which
enabled me to choose "fingertip" from Engraving menu with the <minus>
key, as it always was in past. Hm.
That's a bug in the win32 interface. '-' is both a general menu command
to unselect everything (fairly useless in a 'pick one' menu) and also a
specific choice when fingers or hands are appropriate. The tty interface
picks the specific choice if you type '-', the win32 interface unselects
everything (which has no visible effect when there is nothing selected).
That's already been fixed but that fix was after the 3.6.1 release.
Thanks for that information! Hopefully it is also fixed in the <wield>
menu (= bare/gloved hands)? - - - Hm; seems to be fixed globally.
Post by Pat Rankin
You can workaround this by using the search capability (':' menu command)
to type in a string which matches the dash entry. Any matching substring
will suffice provided it doesn't match an earlier entry. Since 'your fingertip'
is first, there is no earlier entry, so 'y' or 'f' or even '-' should work. Using
something distinct to the entry you intend to match, like 'fing' or 'tip' in
this case, is probably a better way to go.
At the moment I use 2x <down>. That's easy enough, provided that my brain
managed to beat my muscle memory. Which, unfortunately, quite often is
not the case. ;-)

BeAr
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
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Pat Rankin
2018-07-10 22:51:54 UTC
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Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by Pat Rankin
That's a bug in the win32 interface. '-' is both a general menu command
[...] and also a specific choice when fingers or hands are appropriate. [...]
Thanks for that information! Hopefully it is also fixed in the <wield>
menu (= bare/gloved hands)? - - - Hm; seems to be fixed globally.
The bug was in the general selection handling code for menus, not
specific to any particular menu. When there is a conflict between the
menu commands ('>' for next page, '|' for last page, and on forth) and
a specific menu entry, it should have been picking the specific entry
rather than performing the other menu function. Aside from '-' for
hands/fingers, the only other conflict I can think of is using ':' to "look
inside" when looting or applying a box or bag versus ':' to use a search
string to pick a menu entry.

tty has handled this for years, win32 only recently. I think X11 gets it
right for 3.6.0 and later, not sure about Qt since that hasn't been
properly maintained in a long time.
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
Post by Pat Rankin
You can workaround this by using the search capability (':' menu command)
to type in a string which matches the dash entry. [...]
At the moment I use 2x <down>. That's easy enough, provided that my brain
managed to beat my muscle memory. Which, unfortunately, quite often is
not the case. ;-)
You could also click the mouse [gasp] on the desired entry. That's
normal usage for win32.
B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
2018-07-11 04:56:28 UTC
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On Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:51:54 -0700 (PDT), Pat Rankin wrote:

[Menu choice "-"]
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by B. R. 'BeAr' Ederson
At the moment I use 2x <down>. That's easy enough, provided that my brain
managed to beat my muscle memory. Which, unfortunately, quite often is
not the case. ;-)
You could also click the mouse [gasp] on the desired entry. That's
normal usage for win32.
What's a "mouse"?? A giant rat I already met sometimes, but a mouse? ;-)

Joking aside: When <menu> is activated, using the mouse (or cursor keys)
is the only way to drop only part of stacked items. Some d12f (to drop
12 of the items stacked on f) doesn't work. Maybe a number entered right
after an intermediate action menu is opened (drop, fire) should be
buffered and applied to the letter entered next?

BeAr
--
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= What do you mean with: "Perfection is always an illusion"? =
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Bobby Durrett
2018-07-06 13:06:35 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Subject: Why is anyone still playing 3.4.3?
Post by Balbo
Help me understand because I just don't get it. It's 2018.
PS: A different reply to your question that may be enlightening may ask
"Why is in 2018 anyone still playing ancient, non-graphical, character-
based games at all?" ;-)
Yes. Why are we? It's a fun game. There is a lot in 3.4.3, including the
kitchen sink. :)

I like playing the new versions just to see what has been added and to
look out for any new bugs. But it says a lot about the depth of 3.4.3
that people are still playing it after it has been out for 10 or more years.

There are two reasons why I play Nethack: nostalgia and source code. I
played some version (probably called Hack) in college around 1983-84.
The source code is available and fairly easy to understand. Otherwise I
think that the level of detail in 3.4.3 and beyond make it a game with
lasting interest.

Bobby
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-06 13:59:51 UTC
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Post by Bobby Durrett
Post by Janis Papanagnou
"Why is in 2018 anyone still playing ancient, non-graphical, character-
based games at all?" ;-)
Yes. Why are we? It's a fun game. There is a lot in 3.4.3, including the
kitchen sink. :)
I like playing the new versions just to see what has been added and to look
out for any new bugs.
This, actually, is what I found to have been frustrating; that after so many
years nothing really "new" has been incorporated in 3.6 (compared to 3.4).
Post by Bobby Durrett
But it says a lot about the depth of 3.4.3 that people
are still playing it after it has been out for 10 or more years.
Yes, this was long true. Games focussed on graphics, and commercial games had
an inherent problem, they want to make money and a "perfect" game is counter-
productive. Nowadays, though, I am not that confident any more. Not because
there are better game out there - I simply don't know! -, but after that long
time I would assume that increases in graphics is not that thrilling any more,
and people would require something new. (Okay, VR interfaces; which can also
be an effective substitute for lacking quality.) Games like WoW, for example
(no flame war intended), I think are nice to explore, but the mechanics are
quite annoying to me, and then there's the built-in resurrection, that is no
incentive to take care of your character. Game evolution certainly advanced,
so I would think there's other challenging and interesting games out there
that are more "modern".
Post by Bobby Durrett
There are two reasons why I play Nethack: nostalgia and source code. I played
some version (probably called Hack) in college around 1983-84. The source code
is available and fairly easy to understand. Otherwise I think that the level
of detail in 3.4.3 and beyond make it a game with lasting interest.
I'm not sure where to start; nostalgia is certainly an aspect for me. The
many details, puns, and references. And the difficulty. But mostly the degree
of freedom you have, the many possibilties to solve issues (if you are patient
enough) in creative ways. And the mentioned patience is certainly also an
issue; it may sound strange, but it's a form of meditation, to calm down after
an strenuous day. (Yes, it *does* sound strange. %-} )

Janis
Bobby Durrett
2018-07-06 14:46:15 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
I'm not sure where to start; nostalgia is certainly an aspect for me. The
many details, puns, and references. And the difficulty. But mostly the degree
of freedom you have, the many possibilties to solve issues (if you are patient
enough) in creative ways. And the mentioned patience is certainly also an
issue; it may sound strange, but it's a form of meditation, to calm down after
an strenuous day. (Yes, it *does* sound strange. %-} )
Makes perfect sense to me. Happy hacking!

Bobby
Richard Bos
2018-07-09 15:37:17 UTC
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Post by Balbo
Help me understand because I just don't get it. It's 2018.
Because 3.6.1 kills you randomly. When I die, I want it to be _my_
fault, not the RNG's.

Richard
w***@hotmail.com
2018-07-10 14:09:56 UTC
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Post by Richard Bos
Post by Balbo
Help me understand because I just don't get it. It's 2018.
Because 3.6.1 kills you randomly. When I die, I want it to be _my_
fault, not the RNG's.
Richard
What are you talking about?
利根川 幸雄
2018-07-14 03:18:29 UTC
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I’ve done every conduct as well as 11-conduct ascensions in 3.4.3, and I
don’t appreciate the forced linearity the new DevTeam has implemented. I
really liked being able to fuck around in NetHack, with pudding farms,
Elbereth, and other tools newbie players can go decades using without
successfully ascending — in order to have fun. In 3.6, it’s been taken away
because an extreme minority of players (of which there are a dearth in
toto) feel like everyone should be forced to play the game in a certain
way.

Really, the major fixes applied against arcane exploits only reinforce the
linear game for advanced players while also limiting flexibility for same.
The linear game is the most boring shit part of NetHack and always has
been; restricting possibility of bypassing it for fun (even in light of
heavy in-game and social restrictions already in place), and making
conducts-stacking that much harder, has only made the game more worthless
for sandbox-style players.
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