Discussion:
Stroller, buried in Gehennom by a NH-343 shutdown
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Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-08 19:33:27 UTC
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My last NH-343 NAO game terminated abruptly. It was an advanced game, I
was deep down in Gehennom, passed Orcus already. The menu shows no way
to continue or resume that game, it seems "This is the end, my friend."
An invincible character buried in Gehennom by a NH-343 shutdown. What a
fate! Stroller, buried in Gehennom, after 60934 turns, ready to ascend.
No trace in the played games list, no dumplog file, no xlogfile record.
The only thing I could save were the ttyrec files.

Janis
RecRanger
2018-08-09 05:38:04 UTC
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It stinks to lose a character in that manner, while in progress. I wonder if everything is just gone -- for everyone -- not preserved at all? I was not playing any of my games while the shutdown occurred.

I was, however, in the middle of one of the best pacifist games I have ever played in my life. I was also well on my way with a wizard extinctionist, who was fully ready to ascend. I also had a couple priests that were fully ascendable and have always found the priest role difficult. To be clear, I play with different accounts for role-playing's sake.

I went from feeling really great this evening, and hoping to continue my pacifist, to sweat pouring over my whole body and a bad headache.

Why could they not close it out with people only able to finish their open games? I know it was marked as "removed 5.31.18" for some time, but it was still working, so I was happily still playing.

I fully understand why they would remove 3.6.0. But, I honestly do not understand why they would remove 3.4.3., at all. I mean, come on, it is a *NETHACK* server. They should have *multiple* versions up and running, and 3.4.3 is a classic -- near perfection. No variants, just pure, classic NetHack goodness. That said, I do not entirely understand servers and maybe there are issues with having multiple versions of a game.

--
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-09 06:31:22 UTC
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Post by RecRanger
Why could they not close it out with people only able to finish their open
games? I know it was marked as "removed 5.31.18" for some time, but it was
still working, so I was happily still playing.
Actually, per private communication, I asked the maintainers end of May 2018
how they would handle games in progress, and I got the answer: "I'll try to
make it similar, so it's possible to finish already started 343 game." - But
obviously they couldn't or just haven't made the shutdown working that way.
Post by RecRanger
I fully understand why they would remove 3.6.0. But, I honestly do not
understand why they would remove 3.4.3., at all. I mean, come on, it is a
*NETHACK* server.
I think it was David who seconded this opinion a couple months ago as well.
Post by RecRanger
They should have *multiple* versions up and running, and
3.4.3 is a classic -- near perfection. No variants, just pure, classic
NetHack goodness. That said, I do not entirely understand servers and maybe
there are issues with having multiple versions of a game.
Well, if there's issues with those versions or with the underlying system
they have more to do. They also have to maintain more complex directory
structures and more complex websites (for example I see a 361rc file behind
the respective link of my player directory despite playing NH-343; I have
to manually adjust the path); that all could be streamlined and made more
consistent without spending additional effort. - After all they do all the
job for us with the servers, the scripts, and websites, and we're thus not
in a position to demand anything. Rather I'm glad they run the servers and
for so long now. - The shutdown, and specifically the hard shutdown, is
anyway sad.

Janis
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-09 17:44:56 UTC
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Post by RecRanger
I was, however, in the middle of one of the best pacifist games I have ever
played in my life. I was also well on my way with a wizard extinctionist,
who was fully ready to ascend. I also had a couple priests that were fully
ascendable and have always found the priest role difficult. To be clear, I
play with different accounts for role-playing's sake.
Good news! Pasi informed me that if you select the 3.6.1 menu and you have
a pending save file you will get a legacy menu any can choose to continue
your saved game. - I verified that just the moment. Yay!

Good luck for your to be finished games!

Janis
RecRanger
2018-08-10 22:07:07 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by RecRanger
I was, however, in the middle of one of the best pacifist games I have ever
played in my life. I was also well on my way with a wizard extinctionist,
who was fully ready to ascend. I also had a couple priests that were fully
ascendable and have always found the priest role difficult. To be clear, I
play with different accounts for role-playing's sake.
Good news! Pasi informed me that if you select the 3.6.1 menu and you have
a pending save file you will get a legacy menu any can choose to continue
your saved game. - I verified that just the moment. Yay!
Good luck for your to be finished games!
Janis
Oh, gosh! Wow -- you and the admins at alt.org just made my day! Utter elation and excitement! Would be great to continue playing 3.4.3 period, but this is indeed great news. Hopefully, hardfought.org does not remove 3.4.3. I've played 3.6.x, and have even ascended, but I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around several changes. The roles and challenges I like playing were made a _lot_ harder.

Was your character in progress spared/saved somehow?

Also, I something I meant to mention in my first post: I did not know you were the mighty Stroller. I watched your games for a while to see what you were up to before starting my characters. You seemed to ascend once or twice a week! :)

--
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-11 00:06:48 UTC
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Post by RecRanger
Oh, gosh! Wow -- you and the admins at alt.org just made my day!
I was just the messenger. :-)
Post by RecRanger
Was your character in progress spared/saved somehow?
Yes, I could continue the game that I feared to have got lost. Meanwhile
I have finished that game, so this was my last successfully finished NAO
NH-343 game, and quasi the end of an epoch for me.
Post by RecRanger
Also, I something I meant to mention in my first post: I did not know you
were the mighty Stroller. I watched your games for a while to see what you
were up to before starting my characters. You seemed to ascend once or
twice a week! :)
In periods where I had time and the necessary obsession[*] I ascended even
3 characters a week (13 ascensions per month were my maximum for a longer
period of time). But I'm still far from the most impressive players. In the
past I observed a player who ascended one game a day, really amazing, and
maybe even more than that; he even ignored inspecting the endgame logs and
continued immediately with a new game. And if this player (and maybe other
players too) wouldn't have switched game or stopped playing they'd certainly
lead the list. Anyway, now that my long-period statistical data collection
got terminated (and while waiting for NH-3.7 or even NH-4.0) I could spend
some more time for a game called Real Life. Or maybe I'll revisit Slash'em.
Or try Adom, where I never reached far, I always starved. Don't know, let's
see.

Janis

[*] Some say this period covers 365 days a year (with one free day every 4
years, or so), and they may be even right.
t***@gmail.com
2018-08-12 13:47:12 UTC
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Post by RecRanger
I've played 3.6.x, and have even ascended, but I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around several changes. The roles and challenges I like playing were made a _lot_ harder.
I have a lot of experience with 36x, if you ever have any questions about specific changes or new strategies for dealing with them, feel free to ask. I was also hesitant to move up from 343 but overall I think it is a great improvement all-around. Certain strategies were definitely made less effective, but I enjoy the added balance and challenge.
Keith Simpson
2018-08-24 15:06:41 UTC
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I have no intention of removing 3.4.3-NAO from Hardfought. In fact, now that ours is the only server that hosts it, I may deviate from the NAO build a bit. I've always wanted to add auto-open doors and E word tracking to it. May have to do that soon...
Post by RecRanger
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by RecRanger
I was, however, in the middle of one of the best pacifist games I have ever
played in my life. I was also well on my way with a wizard extinctionist,
who was fully ready to ascend. I also had a couple priests that were fully
ascendable and have always found the priest role difficult. To be clear, I
play with different accounts for role-playing's sake.
Good news! Pasi informed me that if you select the 3.6.1 menu and you have
a pending save file you will get a legacy menu any can choose to continue
your saved game. - I verified that just the moment. Yay!
Good luck for your to be finished games!
Janis
Oh, gosh! Wow -- you and the admins at alt.org just made my day! Utter elation and excitement! Would be great to continue playing 3.4.3 period, but this is indeed great news. Hopefully, hardfought.org does not remove 3.4.3. I've played 3.6.x, and have even ascended, but I am still having a hard time wrapping my head around several changes. The roles and challenges I like playing were made a _lot_ harder.
Was your character in progress spared/saved somehow?
Also, I something I meant to mention in my first post: I did not know you were the mighty Stroller. I watched your games for a while to see what you were up to before starting my characters. You seemed to ascend once or twice a week! :)
--
Lunar Opticfibre
2018-08-11 14:06:45 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by RecRanger
I was, however, in the middle of one of the best pacifist games I have ever
played in my life. I was also well on my way with a wizard extinctionist,
who was fully ready to ascend. I also had a couple priests that were fully
ascendable and have always found the priest role difficult. To be clear, I
play with different accounts for role-playing's sake.
Good news! Pasi informed me that if you select the 3.6.1 menu and you have
a pending save file you will get a legacy menu any can choose to continue
your saved game. - I verified that just the moment. Yay!
Good luck for your to be finished games!
Janis
That's part of the plan, you play your savefiles now during the new moon
and they end abruptly.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-12 09:30:23 UTC
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Post by Lunar Opticfibre
That's part of the plan, you play your savefiles now during the new moon
and they end abruptly.
I'm more annoyed by the games I lose during *full* moon; you start with
a soothing message of being lucky, and shortly after it says: "You were
lucky, you are dead." - Actually, after the *new* moon message I tend to
play more carefully, at least during the initial game.

Janis
M C
2018-08-10 01:39:23 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
My last NH-343 NAO game terminated abruptly. It was an advanced game, I
was deep down in Gehennom, passed Orcus already. The menu shows no way
to continue or resume that game, it seems "This is the end, my friend."
An invincible character buried in Gehennom by a NH-343 shutdown. What a
fate! Stroller, buried in Gehennom, after 60934 turns, ready to ascend.
No trace in the played games list, no dumplog file, no xlogfile record.
The only thing I could save were the ttyrec files.
Janis
Unfortunately for me, my promising character (A Samurai ready for ascension) was on the 3.6.0 build, and after checking NAO, is no longer there.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-10 07:01:39 UTC
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Post by M C
Unfortunately for me, my promising character (A Samurai ready for
ascension) was on the 3.6.0 build, and after checking NAO, is no longer
there.
I would have assumed that 3.6.0 saves would be able to run on 3.6.1, and
assumed they'd be transferred into the 3.6.1 environment (if necessary).
But I have no information about the NAO installation so all I can do is
to express my condolence. ;-(

Janis
forbincol
2018-08-12 02:59:33 UTC
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Get with the times and learn to play without relying on Elbereth!!!
3.6.1 is awesome
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-12 06:35:23 UTC
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Post by forbincol
Get with the times and learn to play without relying on Elbereth!!!
I'm keen to learn. So please tell us what to do in the early game if
getting swarmed by a horde of soldier ants (just one example of many).
Post by forbincol
3.6.1 is awesome
What specifically do you find awesome that wasn't in 3.4.3 already?

Janis
Bobby Durrett
2018-08-12 18:46:18 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by forbincol
Get with the times and learn to play without relying on Elbereth!!!
I'm keen to learn. So please tell us what to do in the early game if
getting swarmed by a horde of soldier ants (just one example of many).
Elbereth still works. I just started with 3.6.1 but Elbereth has gotten
me out of some early game jams. You have to write only Elbereth on your
square and not do any attacks. It might take 2 or 3 tries to write it
but once you do it lasts for a while which is still powerful.

But, I used to use wands of fire to write Elbereth in 3.4.3 and that is
out. I guess I need to work on scrolls of scare monster for permanent
scaring in 3.6.1.

I got through my 3.6.0 game pretty well without burning Elbereth but I
was a Samurai and that is a stronger early game character.

Anyway, if you are surrounded my soldier ants you can still write
Elbereth with your finger in 3.6.1 and they will go away.

Bobby
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-12 20:29:03 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by forbincol
Get with the times and learn to play without relying on Elbereth!!!
I'm keen to learn. So please tell us what to do in the early game if
getting swarmed by a horde of soldier ants (just one example of many).
Elbereth still works. [...]
Anyway, if you are surrounded my soldier ants you can still write Elbereth
with your finger in 3.6.1 and they will go away.
Yep, I've heard that before. Though the other poster gave the impression
that there's some way to solve early game standard threats completely
without Elbereth. (Not that I believe he knows anything like that, but
I'm still open to get surprised.)

Janis
Tone
2018-08-12 21:30:57 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by forbincol
Get with the times and learn to play without relying on Elbereth!!!
I'm keen to learn. So please tell us what to do in the early game if
getting swarmed by a horde of soldier ants (just one example of many).
Nothing is going to be as effective as the foolproof near-immunity that 3.4.3 Elbereth spam provided, but you can leverage positioning, ranged attacks, pets, 3.6.1 Elbereth, and a number of items including scrolls/wands of teleportation, wands of digging, scrolls of earth, wands of fire/lightning, scrolls of scare monster, potions of foo healing, leather drums, tooled horns, scrolls of scare monster, magic harps/flutes, wands of sleep, cursed potions of gain level, wands of slow monster, scrolls of genocide, etc., to survive those situations or to avoid them entirely. Some of these items are even common and easily identified.

I do think it's the nature of NetHack that some deaths are truly unavoidable. But as a testament to how winnable the game is without 3.4.3 Elbereth, there's a streak of 61 consecutive ascensions that was played on NetHack 3.6.0 -- and Elbereth has even been buffed since then.

I don't know if the soldier ant scenario was a specific situation or not, but if you have a ttyrec of a particular death that you are curious about, I'd be happy to take a look and let you know if it could have been avoided without the use of 3.4.3-style Elbereth.

Cheers,
Tone
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-13 07:16:14 UTC
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Post by Tone
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by forbincol
Get with the times and learn to play without relying on Elbereth!!!
I'm keen to learn. So please tell us what to do in the early game if
getting swarmed by a horde of soldier ants (just one example of many).
Nothing is going to be as effective as the foolproof near-immunity that
3.4.3 Elbereth spam provided,
Elbereth was not foolproof in NH-343, specifically early game, it was
just unrealiable, until you find a [semi-]perma-engraver. And even then
it wasn't given that you're safe; hords of elven beasts disrespect it,
or hordes of orcs that shoot poisonous missiles. Elbereth doen't make
the game easy, it just alleviates a couple of early quasi-instant death
situations.[*]
Post by Tone
but you can leverage positioning, ranged
attacks, pets, 3.6.1 Elbereth, and a number of items including
scrolls/wands of teleportation, wands of digging, scrolls of earth, wands
of fire/lightning, scrolls of scare monster, potions of foo healing,
leather drums, tooled horns, scrolls of scare monster, magic harps/flutes,
wands of sleep, cursed potions of gain level, wands of slow monster,
scrolls of genocide, etc., to survive those situations or to avoid them
entirely. Some of these items are even common and easily identified.
Once I have crucial basic stats like poison resistance and once I am
equipped with some effective item options - and don't believe you're
telling me anything new by just listing a set of Nethack's items - it's
rarely necessary any more. The point is; what to do early game where
deadly threats appear that you can't handle because you don't have not
only a golf-bag full of options but not even a single one. (There are
also situations were you may have one item that helps to save you but
won't get you out of that situation, rather it just delays death while
more and more monsters arrive, because you can't fight, you can't flee,
and, without Elbereth, you can't scare them.)
Post by Tone
I do think it's the nature of NetHack that some deaths are truly
unavoidable.
While there are unavoidable deaths, my opinion here is that there should
be some tactical and strategical options than landing in an instant death
situation with no option to survive. (Early Elbereth is unrealiable but
at least it served that tactical purpose.)
Post by Tone
But as a testament to how winnable the game is without 3.4.3
Elbereth, there's a streak of 61 consecutive ascensions that was played on
NetHack 3.6.0 -- and Elbereth has even been buffed since then.
I don't know if the soldier ant scenario was a specific situation or not,
It's one regular early game situation that I had more than once. Soldier
ants are still leading the list of deadly monsters at position #2 (after
jackals); they are fast, they are poisonous, and they come in hordes.
(I have 21 soldier ant deaths from 456, or so, NAO deaths; I may provide
a personal statistic, but the overall NAO statistics already show the
picture quite well.)
Post by Tone
but if you have a ttyrec of a particular death that you are curious about,
I'd be happy to take a look and let you know if it could have been avoided
without the use of 3.4.3-style Elbereth.
The last one who showed this sort of arrogance (though less subtle than
your at least polite sounding "offer") was (I think that was his name)
Derek Ray, a couple years ago, proponent of Elbereth nerfing, now member of
the current Nethack development. He picked one of my game and commented on
it, I answered to each of his comments. (You can search the RGRN archives
if you like.) It turned out (of course) that it was an unavoidable soldier
ant (IIRC) ambush. (It also turned out that he knew a lot less about Nethack
than his posting appearance and self-esteem made us believe, but that is a
different issue.)

Countering with arrogance; but if you think that my three decades Nethack
experience, that my 12+ years NAO experience (with 633 NAO ascension),
leave place for suggestions (hopefully not that trivial ones as the object
list above) feel free to inspect the ttyrecs, you know my player name.[**]
As said, I am keen to learn - but I am not interested in trivial statements
as the enumeration of an item list as above. In other, less arrogant words;
please, consider my background if you suggest or want to discuss something.
I am not completely a newbie.

Janis

[*] That early/late game discrepancy is one reason for my suggested change
in Elbereth (not nerf it overall, but depending on stats), so that the
early game gets not randomly deadly.

[**] I suggest to pick a death that was not by own stupidity (like my recent
earth elemental death which was completely avoidable - yes, I am occasionally
also prone to inattentiveness) but the ones we're talking about here.
Jorgen Grahn
2018-08-14 14:04:17 UTC
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...
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by Tone
I do think it's the nature of NetHack that some deaths are truly
unavoidable.
While there are unavoidable deaths, my opinion here is that there should
be some tactical and strategical options than landing in an instant death
situation with no option to survive. (Early Elbereth is unrealiable but
at least it served that tactical purpose.)
Different points of view, perhaps. I never used Elbereth much, but I
also expect to die /a lot/ around the time the ants appear, especially
with non-fighter characters.

I play locally and I don't like competing, so I don't compare with
anyone who ascends more often.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-14 18:02:51 UTC
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Post by Jorgen Grahn
Different points of view, perhaps. I never used Elbereth much, but I
also expect to die /a lot/ around the time the ants appear, especially
with non-fighter characters.
Well, my approach is to least *try* to win every game (but don't come
close enough in practise). - There's some combinations I have really
problems with, e.g. gnomish archeologists. But even with weak characters,
often fate adds to the demise. My last Arc-Gno stepped onto a magic trap
(I think on dlvl:1) which emitted a fire fountain that reduced my initial
maxHP to 9. This is even less than a tourist's starting maxHP. Somehow he
survived until entering the mines, where he met a barrow white who zapped
sleep at me, and draw levels until the fast end. - So I'm still pondering
about ways how to balance the early game. - To accept a deadly early game
may be okay for "Who cares?" players, for those it's okay to just start a
new game and forget the past. To me that's not much different from folks
who start a game and don't care because if they aren't lucky with early
helpful findings they start another game until luck suports their game,
or (only a bit more extreme) like start-scummers. Not sure, maybe some
especially deadly monsters should be forwarded to deeper levels, or a
more reliable E-word (for those who don't abstain), or more (or other)
random helpful items in the players starting equipment, or not creating
random items like wands before Sokoban (to avoid that classical "gnome
with a wand of death", or similar). If we inspect the death statistics,
there's some death-bias observable; that could be an indication where to
start any balance actions. For example; 6% "while helpless" deaths, ~3%
poison related deaths, 2.3% missiles - those are huge values if compared
to that very long list of possible deaths. Mind, folks care about c'trice
(0.8%) or getting drowned (0.18%), but somehow it seems the real outliers
are (at least occasionally) neglected or undervalued in perception. There's
room for early-game balance, I'm sure.

Janis
forbincol
2018-08-14 22:29:11 UTC
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Tone's reply to you was not arrogant in the least.
To me he came across as genuinely offering to help.
You can brag about your 600 someodd ascensions, but the reality is you have relied on a strategy that has been weeded out of the game for good reason. And it's too bad, because it has held you back from learning to actually play the game. The Elbereth change is only a big a deal to those, like you, who have used it as a crutch. I've been reading this newsgroup for a long long time, Janis and you always come across as condescending. It turns out you don't know how to play nethack.
Continue playing the (what 15 year?) old version of the game, and acting holier-than-thou, complain about losing your saved game when it was announced the old version would be removed 3 months ago, use helms of opposite alignment, call others arrogant, continue to cheat.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-15 09:53:53 UTC
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Post by forbincol
but the reality is you have relied on a strategy that has been weeded out
Elbereth is a tactical means and no strategy. There's still no answer which
tactics to apply to avoid the unavoidable deaths that have been given as
example. Feel free to take over the part of the "soldier ant" case defefender.
Post by forbincol
of the game for good reason. And it's too bad, because it has held you back
from learning to actually play the game.
LOL. (Now it's getting really hillarious.)
Post by forbincol
The Elbereth change is only a big
a deal to those, like you, who have used it as a crutch.
Again, enlighten us how the "Real Masters" of the game solve the situations
in question (without relying on Elbereth), if they want to abstain from just
dying "because that's the game".

Besides, despite your claim to be long around here, even in the recent past
I explained all reasons for me not changing to the "bright new" NH-361.
It's amazing that there's some individuals here who have an issue with that
decision.

The nerfed Elbereth (although I think it was a bad decision how it changed)
was not the reason to stay with NAO's NH-343.
Post by forbincol
It turns out you don't know how to play nethack.
Enlighten me how to play it successfully.
Post by forbincol
Continue playing the (what 15 year?) old version of the game,
Why change a version (as said so often meanwhile) if there's nothing really
new that makes it worth to switch? - Still waiting for an answer from the
other poster who said that it's "awesome". - Maybe you want to answer it?)

Since NAO does not support it any more I have switched to Slash'EM for a real
change (compared to NH-361).
Post by forbincol
and acting
holier-than-thou, complain about losing your saved game when it was
announced the old version would be removed 3 months ago,
It was told me by one of the maintainers that we could finish already started
games even when the announced date passed. And it has been made possible to
continue safe-filed NH-343 games. (Read the posts before posting nonsense.)
Post by forbincol
use helms of
opposite alignment, call others arrogant, continue to cheat.
I always used the features offered, whether there's fewer or more. (From some
I deliberately abstained if they felt wrong to me, like artifact wishing, but,
obviously differing from you, I don't care if others use those features, and
I certainly don't call them cheaters because of that, that would be silly.)

WRT "cheating"; obviously you have a different semantics associated with that
word if compared to other parts of the English speaking world that I've seen.

Janis
forbincol
2018-08-14 22:12:25 UTC
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Elbereth still works in the early game. What doesn't work is dropping a gold piece on squares you are not standing on and engraving elbereth across the entire dungeon, or Engraving Elbereth on the upstair in gehennom and defeating every monster or demon prince in the game as it flees from you and you stand on it fighting without it degrading.

People complain about the alignment penalty for fighting a fleeing monster while standing on an Elbereth square. Does this feel like playing fair? They are already running from you from your scribbling in the dust, and now you expect your "lawful" character to be able to stab it in the back?
Post by Janis Papanagnou
What specifically do you find awesome that wasn't in 3.4.3 already?
Janis

I'm going to spin this around because the improvements to the interface and general changes in the game from 3.4.3 (released how long ago?) until now are too numerous and can easily be found in changelogs-

What specifically is keeping you from moving on from 3.4.3 with everyone else ? (if it isn't the Elbereth change)

I honestly don't even know all the mechanics of how E-word used to work because I never used it. I DO know that bots regularly ascended on NAO "playing" 3.43, and that they no longer are able to. That kind of shows right there that with patience basically anyone could win the game, and that the feature was being misused. I don't think it's clever strategy to do like I said above with the gold piece, or to cause a difficult monster to flee and then attack it. It's cheating.

As far as the soldier ants? They are a leading cause of death for just about everyone. They always seem to come along just as the character is starting to coast along and feeling a little (over?) confident. That's the game. Don't rush ahead into dark areas. Have an escape item. Be ready to run away. How is it fair to just write ELBERETH and avoid your fate for playing sloppy? They have spoiled many many many a good players great starts. DYWYPI? That's the game.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-15 09:21:53 UTC
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Post by forbincol
People complain about the alignment penalty for fighting a fleeing monster
while standing on an Elbereth square. Does this feel like playing fair?
Yes, of course, why not?

If you refrain from using your in-game options it's completely your
own business of course.
Post by forbincol
They are already running from you from your scribbling in the dust, and now
you expect your "lawful" character to be able to stab it in the back?
(As often discussed, lawful means not good and chaotic not bad.)

Anyway, I didn't care about that penalty; it was there for Knights in
NH-343 (and with your statement I suppose it's now for all lawfuls in
NH-361).

And if it means that it is the difference between own life or own dead
why would you abstain saving your butt? I've done that with Knights in
NH-343 and would do it with other lawfuls in NH-361.
Post by forbincol
Post by Janis Papanagnou
What specifically do you find awesome that wasn't in 3.4.3 already?
I'm going to spin this around because the improvements to the interface and
general changes in the game from 3.4.3 (released how long ago?) until now
are too numerous and can easily be found in changelogs-
The point is that I had (compared to vanilla 343) already an enhanced
interface with the patched NH-343 at NAO. This is one of the reasons
why I stayed with that NAO version. When I had tried 36x the interface
was inferior compared to the NAO version.
Post by forbincol
What specifically is keeping you from moving on from 3.4.3 with everyone
else ? (if it isn't the Elbereth change)
(I am aware that there are folks who follow "everyone else" just per se.
This is not my mindset.)

My reasons can already be found in RGRN in the respective threads if you
care; I said that already. Just returning the question I asked you about
your statement of NH36x being "awesome" doesn't answer it or give any
insights; it was (also still quoted above; second chance to expose to us
Post by forbincol
Post by Janis Papanagnou
What specifically do you find awesome that wasn't in 3.4.3 already?
If there was - beyond your enthusiasm - any substancial rationals behind
your statement I'd like to hear. (Not that I wouldn't know most changes
already, but I find it interesting what others find it worth a change,
specifically from *NAO* 343 to vanilla 361. - For me there's no question
that a change from vanilla 343 to vanilla 361 would be okay, but since I
am/was playing on NAO that's irrelevant for me.)
Post by forbincol
I honestly don't even know all the mechanics of how E-word used to work
because I never used it. I DO know that bots regularly ascended on NAO
"playing" 3.43, and that they no longer are able to.
The bots I've seen - actually only one bot that wins in the first place -
plays and occasionally wins dwarven valkyries only. (I have an ascension
rate of 80% with that class.) I haven't seen bots winning other race/role
combinations. The most successful bot I've seen until recently was the
bot running under the username we6jbo9 on NAO; he ascended 6 times in a
set of 759 games (that's close to 0.8% success rate; modulo changes that
were introduced recently).

Whether the bot is able or unable to win the NH-361 version we cannot say.
Have you seen an adaption of the bot for that version and a sufficiently
large number of games played by this or another bot so that we can make
any valid statement?
Post by forbincol
That kind of shows
right there that with patience basically anyone could win the game, and
No. Even with the most easy role the bots die much more often that they
win. Even without any of the instant-death incidents your statement here
is utter nonsense.
Post by forbincol
that the feature was being misused.
Littering the E-word may be considered a "misuse", and I've seen players
who mechanically do that in every situation, specifically since Elbereth
scribblings were extremely unreliable already in NH-343. But just using
a feature can hardly be considered a "misuse".
Post by forbincol
I don't think it's clever strategy to
do like I said above with the gold piece, or to cause a difficult monster
to flee and then attack it. It's cheating.
Gee! It's now getting more and more ridiculous. Attacking a fleeing monster
is perfectly fine, even for lawfuls. (But maybe your use of words like
"cheating" is less differentiating than it seems to be standard elsewhere.)
Post by forbincol
As far as the soldier ants? They are a leading cause of death for just
about everyone. They always seem to come along just as the character is
starting to coast along and feeling a little (over?) confident.
It's not overconfidence that kills most players if they meet soldier ants.
As I said elsewhere already; it's their high speed, it's their poisonous
possibly even instant-death attack, it's that they swarm you.
Post by forbincol
That's the game.
If you think it's okay that some monsters can just kill you without having
any inherent tactical option to change odds a bit, well, to each his own.
Post by forbincol
Don't rush ahead into dark areas. Have an escape item.
You don't get it. - Once you have escape items (or anything from your list)
you do have a chance to survive that situation. In the early game you don't
have those options usually. (Do you read the postings before replying?)
Post by forbincol
Be ready to run away.
(It would be easier if you read the arguments and think about them before
posting.) Soldier ants have a speed of 18 (players mostly start with 12),
you can't outrun soldier ants. (Even if you are playing a role from the
small set of fast character classes you don't have that speed necessary
to run away.)

Without effective means to handle soldier ants or escape you need specific
e.g. topographic constellations to escape them; e.g. being close to stairs,
or a nearby door to a corridor or room that can't be reached by other paths,
etc. (and even in those cases you often postpone your death only if you have
no way to circumvent that level in the first place).
Post by forbincol
How is it fair to just write ELBERETH and avoid your fate for
playing sloppy?
You imply sloppiness despite it was pointed out that not sloppiness is the
reason for such situations, it's lacking balance implemented. (Read, think,
post. Please in that order.)
Post by forbincol
They have spoiled many many many a good players great
starts. DYWYPI? That's the game.
Lacking game balance can be fixed.

Janis
利根川 幸雄
2018-08-12 03:49:38 UTC
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What a terrible crime. Will paxed ever apologize?
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-12 06:39:16 UTC
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Post by 利根川 幸雄
What a terrible crime. Will paxed ever apologize?
Apologize for what? - Running NAO and doing all the maintenance for us
is something we should rather be greatful about.

As mentioned in a followup to the OP it was made possible to finish our
started games.

Janis
利根川 幸雄
2018-08-18 04:10:29 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by 利根川 幸雄
What a terrible crime. Will paxed ever apologize?
Apologize for what? - Running NAO and doing all the maintenance for us
is something we should rather be greatful about.
As mentioned in a followup to the OP it was made possible to finish our
started games.
Janis
Just funnin'. paxed is a great human being.
Bobby Durrett
2018-08-12 18:34:50 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
My last NH-343 NAO game terminated abruptly. It was an advanced game, I
was deep down in Gehennom, passed Orcus already. The menu shows no way
to continue or resume that game, it seems "This is the end, my friend."
An invincible character buried in Gehennom by a NH-343 shutdown. What a
fate! Stroller, buried in Gehennom, after 60934 turns, ready to ascend.
No trace in the played games list, no dumplog file, no xlogfile record.
The only thing I could save were the ttyrec files.
I tried to explain what happened with the menu changes on NAO to my wife
and we had an amusing conversation. I explained that I had a 3.6.0 game
that I had left unfinished for over a year but that I rushed to complete
it after 3.6.1 came out. Then I explained that there were 3.4.3 and
3.6.0 users whose games were interrupted but some people were able to
finish them and others apparently not.

Her response: "It is just a game. Why are you worried about finishing
the game?" It was funny trying to explain how much trouble it takes for
me to get the castle wand so I can finish the game and how much of a
slog it is afterward. I don't think she gets the level of complexity of
the game and the time it takes to ascend a character. I think she
compares it to the games she plays on her iPhone which presumably don't
have the depth of detail and challenge and presumably starting a game
over is no big deal. Also, I wanted to do a full game in 3.6.0 to check
out new features and look for bugs which is a little different from the
casual iPhone game app player.

Anyway, I'm trying to make more of an effort to finish a 3.6.1 game and
not leave it to the last second like I did for 3.6.0. Not sure that my
wife will get it but that's ok. She doesn't understand why I like Star
Trek either and we still get along pretty well. :)

Bobby
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-12 20:35:13 UTC
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I tried to explain what happened with the menu changes on NAO to my wife and
we had an amusing conversation. [...]
Her response: "It is just a game. [...]
Uh-oh! Blasphemy! :-)
Anyway, I'm trying to make more of an effort to finish a 3.6.1 game and not
leave it to the last second like I did for 3.6.0. Not sure that my wife will
get it but that's ok. She doesn't understand why I like Star Trek either and
we still get along pretty well. :)
[OT] "Star Trek"? - Of course there's only *one* *real* "Start Trek"! ;-)

Janis
Jorgen Grahn
2018-08-14 22:05:42 UTC
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Post by Bobby Durrett
Post by Janis Papanagnou
My last NH-343 NAO game terminated abruptly. It was an advanced game, I
was deep down in Gehennom, passed Orcus already. The menu shows no way
to continue or resume that game, it seems "This is the end, my friend."
An invincible character buried in Gehennom by a NH-343 shutdown. What a
fate! Stroller, buried in Gehennom, after 60934 turns, ready to ascend.
No trace in the played games list, no dumplog file, no xlogfile record.
The only thing I could save were the ttyrec files.
I tried to explain what happened with the menu changes on NAO to my wife
and we had an amusing conversation. I explained that I had a 3.6.0 game
that I had left unfinished for over a year but that I rushed to complete
it after 3.6.1 came out. Then I explained that there were 3.4.3 and
3.6.0 users whose games were interrupted but some people were able to
finish them and others apparently not.
Her response: "It is just a game. Why are you worried about finishing
the game?" It was funny trying to explain how much trouble it takes for
me to get the castle wand so I can finish the game and how much of a
slog it is afterward. I don't think she gets the level of complexity of
the game and the time it takes to ascend a character. I think she
compares it to the games she plays on her iPhone which presumably don't
have the depth of detail and challenge and presumably starting a game
over is no big deal.
Unsolicited marriage tip: since she asked you about Nethack, you might
want to ask questions about /her/ games :-)

...
Post by Bobby Durrett
Anyway, I'm trying to make more of an effort to finish a 3.6.1 game and
not leave it to the last second like I did for 3.6.0. Not sure that my
wife will get it but that's ok. She doesn't understand why I like Star
Trek either and we still get along pretty well. :)
If you mean anything more recent than ST:TOS, then I don't understand,
either :-)

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
jim in austin
2018-08-15 02:00:13 UTC
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Post by Jorgen Grahn
Unsolicited marriage tip: since she asked you about Nethack, you might
want to ask questions about /her/ games :-)
I spent much of this afternoon tutoring my wife on nethack. It is her
first serious immersion in the game in years. Her dwarf valkyrie has so
far finished mine's end, sokoban, the castle and today was the quest. I
am not noted as a patient mentor but we are both trying. It has actually
been quite a good experience. And tomorrow we prepare for gehennom...
Bobby Durrett
2018-08-18 20:16:33 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
Post by Jorgen Grahn
Unsolicited marriage tip: since she asked you about Nethack, you might
want to ask questions about /her/ games :-)
I spent much of this afternoon tutoring my wife on nethack. It is her
first serious immersion in the game in years. Her dwarf valkyrie has so
far finished mine's end, sokoban, the castle and today was the quest. I
am not noted as a patient mentor but we are both trying. It has actually
been quite a good experience. And tomorrow we prepare for gehennom...
The family that plays together stays together. :)
Bobby Durrett
2018-08-18 20:22:50 UTC
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Post by Jorgen Grahn
Post by Bobby Durrett
Post by Janis Papanagnou
My last NH-343 NAO game terminated abruptly. It was an advanced game, I
I tried to explain what happened with the menu changes on NAO to my wife
Unsolicited marriage tip: since she asked you about Nethack, you might
want to ask questions about /her/ games :-)
That sounds like a good plan. :)
forbincol
2018-08-14 22:53:58 UTC
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And forgive me if i'm wrong, but Janis, aren't you one of those players who picks up every junk item in the dungeon they see and is constantly playing the game encumbered?
Solider ants are fast...

The game goes out of it's way to point out that that "strategy" is a losing one -"You fall down the stairs", but some players insist on doing it then wonder why they can't avoid death without scribbling Elbereth when a real threat comes along.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-15 10:57:43 UTC
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Post by forbincol
And forgive me if i'm wrong, but Janis, aren't you one of those players who
picks up every junk item in the dungeon they see and is constantly playing
the game encumbered? Solider ants are fast...
Basically correct, but not quite. I try to collect items so that monsters
don't use them to my disadvantage and I stash them away. In the early game
when encumbrance and speed matters most I collect unidentified potions and
scrolls and deposit them in a stash on dlvl:1, maybe another stash where
appropriate in case I find a lot of interesting but heavy items. Another
reason for the stashes (even if unencumbered) is that items should not get
destroyed by traps or wand attacs. Once I am settled - typically when I've
got a BoH - I can take more loot with me without being burdened, then I try
to bless it to again increase capacity. Depending on the role and standing
at some point I don't mind burdeness any more if it doesn't matter. I also
usually ascend burdened without problems. Occasionally (on Astral) I drop
my bag temporarily before reaching the riders.

The soldier ants are a general threat, not only mine. (See NAO statistics.)
The problem is that they are faster than humans, and faster than intrinsic
fast humans. Being burdened makes speed an issue generally; in case of the
soldier ants the effects are only marginally, though; because they're in any
case faster, they are poisonous (which is an issue early, when you haven't
yet got poison resistance, and not only the instant-death case is an issue
but also the huge drain), and they come in hordes. Last but not least they
arrive early in the game where you have rarely means to kill them or escape
the scenery. In my soldier ant deaths they appeared and killed me between
dlvl:3 and dlvl:9 (on average on dlvl:6). All roles seem to be prone to an
early soldier ant death (but in my games Bar and Sam seem to have had luck).
It is noteworthy that I have no advanced game soldier ants deaths (haven't
inspected the other NAO players), which I think is an indication that they
may appear too early and that their difficulty ranking should be adjusted;
early on they're often a quite unavoidable death, later on no threat at all.

From my 21 soldier ant deaths there's only 7 where I was burdened. This can
be characterized as tactical fault. Or at least partly, since the difference
in speed is comparably small (they are always faster) and the effectiveness
of their (poisonous) attacks in hordes that great that in my experience it's
arguable whether all those burdened deaths could have been avoided in the
case of soldier ants. I would dare to say that (only statistically!) maybe
one or two of these characters might have escaped that situation, but on
inspection of the endgame logs I see that all these encounters where in an
open area with no way to flee, so being unburded in those cases would not
have changed anything.
Post by forbincol
The game goes out of it's way to point out that that "strategy" is a losing
one -"You fall down the stairs", but some players insist on doing it then
wonder why they can't avoid death without scribbling Elbereth when a real
threat comes along.
I don't complain in situations where I died because of inattentiveness, or
if it's due to my burdeness in some games, or (depending on mood) a sloppy
play, that all happens. My criticism starts in other situations, as I think
to have explained sufficiently.

Janis
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