Discussion:
3.6.0 and Elbereth
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Jist Anidiot
2016-09-04 23:21:30 UTC
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So I'm still not understanding the changes to Elbereth in 3.6.0, other than realizing Elbereth just doesn't work any more.

I have my trusty Magicbane. I engrave Elbereth. As soon as I'm done, a fire ant attacks me, burns all of my scrolls, and I die.
https://alt.org/nethack/userdata/c/comptril/ttyrec/2016-09-04.21:51:56.ttyrec

This is not the first time I've had something like this happen. It really looks like Elbereth is only effective a small percentage of the time.
a***@gmail.com
2016-09-07 12:12:43 UTC
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Post by Jist Anidiot
So I'm still not understanding the changes to Elbereth in 3.6.0, other than realizing Elbereth just doesn't work any more.
I have my trusty Magicbane. I engrave Elbereth. As soon as I'm done, a fire ant attacks me, burns all of my scrolls, and I die.
https://alt.org/nethack/userdata/c/comptril/ttyrec/2016-09-04.21:51:56.ttyrec
This is not the first time I've had something like this happen. It really looks like Elbereth is only effective a small percentage of the time.
Here are the rules:

1. Elbereth only works at the start of the text. So "E|ber t`El`e t'Elbereth" will no longer be read as an Elbereth square.

2. Once any monster has seen Elbereth and gotten scared, at least one letter of the Elbereth is degraded. This means if a bunch of monsters have surrounded you, only one of them will get scared of Elbereth.

3. Even "permanent" Elbereth will get degraded by rule 2 above. This means even burnt Elbereth will degrade.

In general, rule 1 means you're better off erasing the previous Elbereth rather than appending extra Elbereths. Rule 2 also means you can no longer use Elbereth against crowds - you need to limit crowds by some other means, such as doorway or corridor.
Janis Papanagnou
2016-09-07 13:53:53 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
1. Elbereth only works at the start of the text. So "E|ber t`El`e
t'Elbereth" will no longer be read as an Elbereth square.
I see no problem; once the original is erased I clear it anyway to write it
anew. But that prevents spamming many Elbereths; which is an appropriate
means to nerf it. OTOH, this should (IMO) be countered by increasing the
chances to successfully write Elbereth; far too often, and often repeatedly,
tries for even a single engraving fail, IME.
Post by a***@gmail.com
2. Once any monster has seen Elbereth and gotten scared, at least one
letter of the Elbereth is degraded. This means if a bunch of monsters have
surrounded you, only one of them will get scared of Elbereth.
This is really bad! - I see my characters surrounded by 5 soldier ants and
one scared grid-bug.

And what is "_at least_ one letter is degraded" supposed to mean from an
implementor's view; It's obviously completely irrelevant whether one or more
letters get erased. The Devteam could as well have cleared the whole word (in
case of dust engravings; but there is a difference - a further disadvantage
actually! - if you burn the letters; see below point 3.).
Post by a***@gmail.com
3. Even "permanent" Elbereth will get degraded by rule 2 above. This
means even burnt Elbereth will degrade.
The already overly difficult early game does not get easier, rather worse.
Post by a***@gmail.com
In general, rule 1 means you're better off erasing the previous Elbereth
rather than appending extra Elbereths. Rule 2 also means you can no longer
use Elbereth against crowds - you need to limit crowds by some other means,
such as doorway or corridor.
So I'd conclude that burning is only helpful if you want to be sure that one
engraving succeeds, and dust engravings are preferable if you plan to refresh
it a couple of times. - And what about athames? Still a one-turn guaranteed
engraving? (Which would make them even more precious than they currently are.)

Thanks for summarizing the changes!

Janis
a***@gmail.com
2016-09-07 23:03:18 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by a***@gmail.com
2. Once any monster has seen Elbereth and gotten scared, at least one
letter of the Elbereth is degraded. This means if a bunch of monsters have
surrounded you, only one of them will get scared of Elbereth.
This is really bad! - I see my characters surrounded by 5 soldier ants and
one scared grid-bug.
And what is "_at least_ one letter is degraded" supposed to mean from an
implementor's view; It's obviously completely irrelevant whether one or more
letters get erased. The Devteam could as well have cleared the whole word (in
case of dust engravings; but there is a difference - a further disadvantage
actually! - if you burn the letters; see below point 3.).
It's possible that the actual algorithm is "exactly one letter is degraded". That's what I saw: a monster goes near, gets scared, I look again with : and one letter is degraded from Elbereth.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by a***@gmail.com
3. Even "permanent" Elbereth will get degraded by rule 2 above. This
means even burnt Elbereth will degrade.
The already overly difficult early game does not get easier, rather worse.
Post by a***@gmail.com
In general, rule 1 means you're better off erasing the previous Elbereth
rather than appending extra Elbereths. Rule 2 also means you can no longer
use Elbereth against crowds - you need to limit crowds by some other means,
such as doorway or corridor.
So I'd conclude that burning is only helpful if you want to be sure that one
engraving succeeds, and dust engravings are preferable if you plan to refresh
it a couple of times. - And what about athames? Still a one-turn guaranteed
engraving? (Which would make them even more precious than they currently are.)
Athames are still one-turn-engrave.

As to usefulness... My experiencee with a Valk who got an athame from an annoying lich before she genocided them was that they were *less* useful, given the "only one monster gets scared, then the Elbereth is degraded" rule. You learn to limit crowds by retreating into a corridor, and a Valk one-on-one (or probably any character on the way to ascension) is usually going to beat them in a straight up fight. Used to be, I'd value athames for the opportunity to limit crowds in rooms without having to retreat to a corridor. Now, I'd rather just retreat to a corridor and beat them one by one with regular hits.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Thanks for summarizing the changes!
Janis
Janis Papanagnou
2016-09-08 00:18:14 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Athames are still one-turn-engrave.
This is good news. :-)
Post by a***@gmail.com
As to usefulness... My experiencee with a Valk who got an athame from an
annoying lich before she genocided them was that they were *less* useful,
given the "only one monster gets scared, then the Elbereth is degraded"
rule.
In this respect Elbereth is generally less useful, yes. But I think the
degradation for athames is not that bad if compared to the degradation of
the other options. The advantages: 1. still one-turn, 2. still guaranteed,
3. you can still overwrite existing engravings, and thereby scare the next
monster in turn. In other words; we have one guaranteed scare per turn.

(I certainly agree with you that the scaring scroll is much more important
now. The "only" problem is that you have to be lucky to find one - and the
Sokoban scroll is not even blessed to use it, no, it's even cursed! - and
to get more or have some effective means to create some. Unlikely in the
critical early game.)
Post by a***@gmail.com
You learn to limit crowds by retreating into a corridor, and a Valk
one-on-one (or probably any character on the way to ascension) is usually
going to beat them in a straight up fight. Used to be, I'd value athames
for the opportunity to limit crowds in rooms without having to retreat to a
corridor. Now, I'd rather just retreat to a corridor and beat them one by
one with regular hits.
Of course you should try to retreat, but that's often just impossible; e.g.
if in the early game you get swarmed by fast soldier ants (just to name one
example), or later if you face other fast monsters, like an air elemental),
and in the mid to late game when summoners appear (starting with titans) and
just place the creatures around you. Mind that not every character played is
a valkyrie with an early Excalibur in hand; other classes that have to rely
on defensive means - and usually those are the inherently weaker classes! -
will have an even tougher time and less chances to survive specifically the
early game. The bad thing about it is that there seems to be nothing provided
to compensate that in any way.

I can imagine a couple aspects to tweak Elbereth in a probably more balanced
form; roughly (for example) to make success of an writing depend on "brainy"
skills (maybe including dexterity), but specifically be severely hindered by
physical skills (strength). That would disadvantage the easy fighter classes,
while weak classes have a way to partly compensate their shortcommings, but
as the weak roles increase their power they would also be less and less able
to reliably write. It would bias the magic word capabilities towards the
disadvantaged roles early, and later the advantage of the powerful magic word
would get less significant or at some point insignificant at all. (I have to
admit that it's not thoroughly thought through, but it seems to at least
address two aspects that seem to not have been addressed in previous versions
and which got yet worse in the current version. - Of course, YMMV.)

Janis
a***@gmail.com
2016-09-08 08:46:14 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by a***@gmail.com
Athames are still one-turn-engrave.
This is good news. :-)
Post by a***@gmail.com
As to usefulness... My experiencee with a Valk who got an athame from an
annoying lich before she genocided them was that they were *less* useful,
given the "only one monster gets scared, then the Elbereth is degraded"
rule.
In this respect Elbereth is generally less useful, yes. But I think the
degradation for athames is not that bad if compared to the degradation of
the other options. The advantages: 1. still one-turn, 2. still guaranteed,
3. you can still overwrite existing engravings, and thereby scare the next
monster in turn. In other words; we have one guaranteed scare per turn.
(I certainly agree with you that the scaring scroll is much more important
now. The "only" problem is that you have to be lucky to find one - and the
Sokoban scroll is not even blessed to use it, no, it's even cursed! - and
to get more or have some effective means to create some. Unlikely in the
critical early game.)
FWIW scare monster seems to spawn much, much more often in 360 than I remember in 3.4.3. Identifying one is easy: if you pick it up and it crumbles, it's scare. (yeah, that spends it, but like I said, they seem to spawn more often)

For instance, in my current monk game, I've written exactly one scare monster scroll. I got another 3 from random drops, and happened to lose one of them while dropping scrolls on an altar to BUC-identify them. I spent 2 on the castle: 1 to handle the welcoming lich committee, the other to protect my drawbridge-controlling square.

OF course, it could simply mean I'm noticing them a lot more now that Elbereth has been nerfed - I mostly just left them behind in 3.4.3
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by a***@gmail.com
You learn to limit crowds by retreating into a corridor, and a Valk
one-on-one (or probably any character on the way to ascension) is usually
going to beat them in a straight up fight. Used to be, I'd value athames
for the opportunity to limit crowds in rooms without having to retreat to a
corridor. Now, I'd rather just retreat to a corridor and beat them one by
one with regular hits.
Of course you should try to retreat, but that's often just impossible; e.g.
if in the early game you get swarmed by fast soldier ants (just to name one
example), or later if you face other fast monsters, like an air elemental),
and in the mid to late game when summoners appear (starting with titans) and
just place the creatures around you. Mind that not every character played is
a valkyrie with an early Excalibur in hand; other classes that have to rely
on defensive means - and usually those are the inherently weaker classes! -
will have an even tougher time and less chances to survive specifically the
early game. The bad thing about it is that there seems to be nothing provided
to compensate that in any way.
I'm actually referring to the usefulness of athames here, so possibly we're kinda talking perpendicularly to each other... Well, it's not like you can get an athame early, unless you're a Wizard who lucked on an early co-aligned altar. By the time you can get an athame, you'll probably be powerful enough to kill anything one-on-one (for most characters, you'll get an athame off the undead hands of a lich, so by the time you are able to do that....). In 3.4.3 athame-Elbereth was useful if you're trying to do something else (arranging your inventory, moving stuff into and out of bags, and it's not so important that you'd go hunt a closet to hide in) and a group of orcs shows up; for me, athame-Elbereth was more a utility to stop monsters from bothering you for a while.

So, basically, I think in 3.6.0, if you're not going for genocideless, go genocide L early, there's no real point in trying to get an athame.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
I can imagine a couple aspects to tweak Elbereth in a probably more balanced
form; roughly (for example) to make success of an writing depend on "brainy"
skills (maybe including dexterity), but specifically be severely hindered by
physical skills (strength). That would disadvantage the easy fighter classes,
while weak classes have a way to partly compensate their shortcommings, but
as the weak roles increase their power they would also be less and less able
to reliably write. It would bias the magic word capabilities towards the
disadvantaged roles early, and later the advantage of the powerful magic word
would get less significant or at some point insignificant at all. (I have to
admit that it's not thoroughly thought through, but it seems to at least
address two aspects that seem to not have been addressed in previous versions
and which got yet worse in the current version. - Of course, YMMV.)
That sounds like a good, self-balancing tweak.

If I get off my lazy butt and do a source dive,
a***@gmail.com
2016-09-08 08:49:36 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
I can imagine a couple aspects to tweak Elbereth in a probably more balanced
form; roughly (for example) to make success of an writing depend on "brainy"
skills (maybe including dexterity), but specifically be severely hindered by
physical skills (strength). That would disadvantage the easy fighter classes,
while weak classes have a way to partly compensate their shortcommings, but
as the weak roles increase their power they would also be less and less able
to reliably write. It would bias the magic word capabilities towards the
disadvantaged roles early, and later the advantage of the powerful magic word
would get less significant or at some point insignificant at all. (I have to
admit that it's not thoroughly thought through, but it seems to at least
address two aspects that seem to not have been addressed in previous versions
and which got yet worse in the current version. - Of course, YMMV.)
That sounds like a good, self-balancing tweak.
If I get off my lazy butt and do a source dive,
Sorry, accidentally pressed post before I could finish the sentence ...

If I get off my lazy butt and do a source dive, I'd probably implement this by making finger-engraving more reliable in proportion to intelligence and dexterity, and less reliable in proportion to strength and constitution.
David Damerell
2016-09-08 11:04:21 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
FWIW scare monster seems to spawn much, much more often in 360 than I
remember in 3.4.3. Identifying one is easy: if you pick it up and it
crumbles, it's scare. (yeah, that spends it, but like I said, they seem
to spawn more often)
It's easy to check if item probabilities have changed. (They have not.)
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Clown shoes. I hope that doesn't bother you.
Today is Brieday, August.
Tomorrow will be Gouday, August.
d***@gmail.com
2018-08-27 03:35:57 UTC
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Post by a***@gmail.com
Athames are still one-turn-engrave.
Athames aren't really an important strategy in the game anymore (if you can take one off a magical monster in the endgame, you don't need one). Except for Magicbane.

Athames were removed from wizards' starting inventory with introduction of the spell system in 3.3, to stop wizards hiding behind a fortress of Elbereth's and casting spells. Though Wizards remained the role with the least ascensions. With 3.6.0 changes being a wizard doesn't get any easier.

Perhaps with the downgrading in the power of Elbereth in 3.6 the athame could be restored as the wizard's starting weapon. Many wizards throw their +1 quarterstaff away as soon as they find a dagger. This would make the early game for wizards more fun to play. It would leave a few cursed athames around in wizard bone files, which was part of the fun of the game. it wouldn't unbalance the game too much as they are aren't worth more than charges of a Wand of Digging or a Magic Marker and you can still get Magicbane.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-27 16:13:04 UTC
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Post by d***@gmail.com
Many wizards throw their +1 quarterstaff away as soon as they find a
dagger.
With "many wizards" do you mean "many of *your* wizards"? Any why would
they do that? Since the Basic +1 quarterstaff makes an average damage of
+4.5/+4.5 while the ordinary dagger makes only +2.5/+2.0 damage (with a
starting malus of -2.0/-2.0 at Unskilled). If you want to enhance your
dagger proficiency before you get Magicbane you should probably first
train your daggers in ranged combat while using the quarterstaff for
melee. Once you're at Basic in Dagger you could name an elven dagger as
Sting to get a bonus on the appearing orcs, while still using daggers
at melee range (also to get multi-shot bonus). OTOH, wizards have also
an offensive spell as option.

Janis
Benjamin A. Schmit
2018-08-28 04:59:05 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by d***@gmail.com
Many wizards throw their +1 quarterstaff away as soon as they find a
dagger.
With "many wizards" do you mean "many of *your* wizards"? Any why would
they do that? Since the Basic +1 quarterstaff makes an average damage of
+4.5/+4.5 while the ordinary dagger makes only +2.5/+2.0 damage (with a
starting malus of -2.0/-2.0 at Unskilled). If you want to enhance your
dagger proficiency before you get Magicbane you should probably first
train your daggers in ranged combat while using the quarterstaff for
melee. Once you're at Basic in Dagger you could name an elven dagger as
Sting to get a bonus on the appearing orcs, while still using daggers
at melee range (also to get multi-shot bonus). OTOH, wizards have also
an offensive spell as option.
I tend to do this as well. Maybe not throw it away immediately, but
certainly move it to the secondary weapon slot and try to stay with the
dagger for the weak monsters that appear at the beginning, in order to
quickly train the skill.

And if I see that it will not work out in a certain case, one zap of the
mentioned offensive spell is quite often enough to deal with the
situation. If not, retreat and let the pet do the dirty work. If I'm
lucky and get an elf with a tooled horn / leather drum as a starting
instrument, I'll make good use of those as well.

Benjamin
--
Seek freedom and become captive of your desires.
Seek discipline and find your liberty.
-- Frank Herbert, Dune Chronicles
Jorgen Grahn
2018-08-28 05:36:18 UTC
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Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by d***@gmail.com
Many wizards throw their +1 quarterstaff away as soon as they find a
dagger.
With "many wizards" do you mean "many of *your* wizards"? Any why would
they do that?
...
Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
I tend to do this as well.
Me too. And, I remember and miss that start kit athame.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-28 06:25:57 UTC
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Post by Jorgen Grahn
Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by d***@gmail.com
Many wizards throw their +1 quarterstaff away as soon as they find a
dagger.
With "many wizards" do you mean "many of *your* wizards"? Any why would
they do that?
...
Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
I tend to do this as well.
Me too. And, I remember and miss that start kit athame.
The advantage of the starting athame was certainly that you could easily
quasi-perma engrave the saving word. Without a better weapon you'd rely
more on your offensive spell. But you have to watch your nutrition and
not delay progress too much.

Janis
Jorgen Grahn
2018-08-28 10:44:19 UTC
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Post by Jorgen Grahn
Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by d***@gmail.com
Many wizards throw their +1 quarterstaff away as soon as they find a
dagger.
With "many wizards" do you mean "many of *your* wizards"? Any why would
they do that?
...
Post by Benjamin A. Schmit
I tend to do this as well.
Me too. And, I remember and miss that start kit athame.
The advantage of the starting athame was certainly that you could easily
quasi-perma engrave the saving word.
I didn't engrave much at the time (and still don't). I liked it
because it was rare, hinted at Magicbane, and prepared you for the
dagger strategy.

So I'm for giving the wizards back their athames.

(In light of recent discussions here, I should add that this is my
subjective view, and I already know others value other things
differently.)

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
d***@gmail.com
2018-08-28 05:31:43 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
With "many wizards" do you mean "many of *your* wizards"?
It's a standard tactic for wizards, (it's in the wiki's wizard
strategy), to work on your dagger and spell skills and collecting items.
Not being burdened by a big, heavy, two-handed weapon leads to
jettisoning the quarterstaff pretty quickly. Wizard's don't have skill slots to invest in the staff, (unless you are a neutral wizard and are willing to gamble everything on wishing for The Staff of Aesculapius).

While a +1 quarterstaff is a powerful weapon against large monsters
early on, thrown daggers are more useful later. Putting on banded mail
and bashing things a close range with a big stick will keep a wizard
alive and level them up boosting their HP and Pw. But then what? You
have low St and Co, can't carry much, and aren't going to get much further
playing like a barbarian.

Yes the unskilled penalty for a dagger is a hassle, as its their their
first gift artifact and the best weapon for them to study. Which is why switching back to an athame and basic dagger skill would help them. This is a much more wizardly way to play them, and what you had to do before 3.3.

Pertinax
Janis Papanagnou
2018-08-28 06:43:20 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
With "many wizards" do you mean "many of *your* wizards"?
It's a standard tactic for wizards, (it's in the wiki's wizard strategy),
to work on your dagger and spell skills and collecting items.
Since you don't deal enough damage with daggers one should not train it
in melee, but rather use daggers in missile combat. In case you have to
melee you should take anything more effective available.
Not being burdened by a big, heavy, two-handed weapon leads to jettisoning
the quarterstaff pretty quickly. Wizard's don't have skill slots to invest
in the staff, (unless you are a neutral wizard and are willing to gamble
everything on wishing for The Staff of Aesculapius).
I as well drop that weapon as soon as possible, but that is not before I
have got an effective weapon. To survive early game wizards I also don't
have an issue to invest a skill slot. If I am lucky with an early altar
I camp for Magicbane which is with all its bonuses (of course) worth the
weapon switch.
While a +1 quarterstaff is a powerful weapon against large monsters early
on, thrown daggers are more useful later.
No doubt about their usefulness later.
Putting on banded mail and bashing things a close range with a big stick
will keep a wizard alive and level them up boosting their HP and Pw.
The problem I have with that armor strategy is that wizards then cannot
use their offensive spell which is often the only way early on to get the
foes out of your way and to progress.
But then what? You have low St and Co, can't carry much, and aren't going
to get much further playing like a barbarian.
Banded mail for wizards is also bad because of - you mentioned it - your
carrying capacity; it's much more heavy than the staff. For weight issues
I thus seek for mithril (once I can afford the spellcasting drawbacks) or
just plain studded leather in the early game.
Yes the unskilled penalty for a dagger is a hassle, as its their their
first gift artifact and the best weapon for them to study. [...]
Once you find an altar and get Magicbane you're fine.

Janis
Pat Rankin
2018-08-28 10:36:37 UTC
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Post by d***@gmail.com
Athames aren't really an important strategy in the game anymore (if you
can take one off a magical monster in the endgame, you don't need one).
Except for Magicbane.
Athames were removed from wizards' starting inventory with introduction
of the spell system in 3.3, to stop wizards hiding behind a fortress of
Elbereth's and casting spells. Though Wizards remained the role with the
least ascensions. With 3.6.0 changes being a wizard doesn't get any easier.
Removing the starting athame was a fundamental aspect of the so-called
"wizard patch" (which wasn't development by devteam but was adopted
into the game) that extended the weapon skills system to incorporate spell
casting skills. I don't think nerfing easy Elbereth was a significant reason
for starting athame's removal. In exchange for losing that weapon, wizards
are given the force bolt spell instead of the completely random ones they
used to get. It was an explicit attempt to encourage wizards to use spells
instead of weapons.

I don't think it has succeeded all that well, but doubt if things are going
to get changed back to equipment which encourages weapon combat.
Wizards could be given a 50:50 chance of staff plus force bolt or athame
plus some specific other spell, but that would almost certainly lead to even
more character re-rolling than is already done for wizards.
ais523
2018-08-28 14:51:23 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
Removing the starting athame was a fundamental aspect of the so-called
"wizard patch" (which wasn't development by devteam but was adopted
into the game) that extended the weapon skills system to incorporate spell
casting skills. I don't think nerfing easy Elbereth was a significant reason
for starting athame's removal. In exchange for losing that weapon, wizards
are given the force bolt spell instead of the completely random ones they
used to get. It was an explicit attempt to encourage wizards to use spells
instead of weapons.
In vanilla, Pw doesn't recharge quickly enough early game to make any
real use of force bolt other than as an emergency or utility spell. In
fact, the usual Wizard strategy I see recommended by top players is to
forgo spellcasting (wearing metal armour, etc.) until substantially
later in the game, as it isn't worth enough early, and to rely almost
entirely on daggers instead.

I know there's been discussion among variant developers as to whether
this might be worth changing (most likely by increasing Pw recharge
rate). One of the more developed strategies involved tying starting
Wisdom to class, and tying Pw recharge rate to Wisdom, meaning that most
classes would be limited in spellcasting early but primary-spellcasting
classes could be given a reasonable recharge rate. Some variants also
have an amulet that increases Pw recharge (similar to the Eye but
normally less effective), which might be a viable starting item for
Wizards.

It strikes me that possibly, a good solution would be to change Pw
recharge rate from scaling to flat, i.e. Pw recharges at the same rate
for any given wizard regardless of their stats and level. (Having a
high maxPw would still be useful because it'd allow you to cast more
spells per combat.) That could allow wizards to cast force bolt almost
every fight.

(It'd probably also be worthwhile decoupling the skill slots for wielded
daggers and thrown daggers, as the cross-training available there is a
major part of the reason why Wizards rely on daggers in particular.
Daggerstorming classes like Rogue would probably still be just fine
training them separately.)
--
ais523
jim in austin
2018-08-28 18:35:10 UTC
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Somewhat tangential to the wizard dagger/athame discussion is the new
3.6.1 aklys. I would say it is worth considering for any role with the
club skill. Effective even from the earliest part of the game. Might make
even more sense for wizard since they no longer get +1 multishot at
skilled...

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