Discussion:
Barbarian without Cleaver??? [NH 3.4.3]
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Paulus
2018-06-19 04:11:38 UTC
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Something pretty unusual has just happened to my neutral human barbarian who received Mojo as his first (and only so far) sacrifice gift. I nearly convinced myself that I had happened to self-convert earlier and kinda prepared to attempt my first ever quest-portal-less ascension (assuming Neu and single sacrifice gift make wishing for EoA and branchporting to Quest a viable option). However the quest leader has just happily let me into the Quest, meaning I assume that I had been Neu from the start.

So... any ideas how I happened to miss Cleaver and get another sac gift? From my understanding of the game and substantial experience it must be Cleaver or nothing. The only thing I am a bit suspicious about is that I have stepped onto polymorph traps and become a new man a couple of times. Way, way before Mojo. To me that explains nothing but everything else in the game was perfectly normal. Is it possible that the "new man" thing can somehow remove the first sac gift requirement?
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-19 06:07:49 UTC
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Post by Paulus
Something pretty unusual has just happened to my neutral human barbarian
who received Mojo as his first (and only so far) sacrifice gift. [...]
So... any ideas how I happened to miss Cleaver and get another sac gift?
Most likely Cleaver was already existing; maybe in a bones heap, or just as
a randomly created item lying around anywhere in the dungeons or in a shop.
Reinspect all the dungeons (and monster equipments) that you visited before
your first sacrifice thoroughly and you will probably find that weapon.

Janis
Paulus
2018-06-19 06:28:02 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Most likely Cleaver was already existing; maybe in a bones heap, or just as
a randomly created item lying around anywhere in the dungeons or in a shop.
Reinspect all the dungeons (and monster equipments) that you visited before
your first sacrifice thoroughly and you will probably find that weapon.
But... wouldn't that have meant no sacrifice gift at all?
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-19 06:29:53 UTC
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Post by Paulus
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Most likely Cleaver was already existing; maybe in a bones heap, or just as
a randomly created item lying around anywhere in the dungeons or in a shop.
Reinspect all the dungeons (and monster equipments) that you visited before
your first sacrifice thoroughly and you will probably find that weapon.
But... wouldn't that have meant no sacrifice gift at all?
No, you will get an arbitrary amount of artifact weapons from sacrifices.
There's in certain cases only role- and/or race-specific preferences, and
probabilities for subsequent artifacts are lower. Then there's the player
and artifact alignment match. But that's it. The Wiki should have entries
and information on all that.

Janis
Paulus
2018-06-19 06:42:53 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
No, you will get an arbitrary amount of artifact weapons from sacrifices.
There's in certain cases only role- and/or race-specific preferences, and
probabilities for subsequent artifacts are lower. Then there's the player
and artifact alignment match. But that's it. The Wiki should have entries
and information on all that.
Thanks, I probably confused what I thought to be a strict guaranteed first
gift restriction with the possibility (especially for chaotic) to have the
choice of co-aligned artifacts exhausted before the first gift. Wiki is not
particularly clear on the subject (or at least the info is too deeply
hidden for someone as impatient as myself).
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-19 17:22:23 UTC
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Post by Paulus
Post by Janis Papanagnou
No, you will get an arbitrary amount of artifact weapons from sacrifices.
There's in certain cases only role- and/or race-specific preferences, and
probabilities for subsequent artifacts are lower. [...]
Thanks, I probably confused what I thought to be a strict guaranteed first
gift restriction with the possibility (especially for chaotic) to have the
choice of co-aligned artifacts exhausted before the first gift.
Whatever alignment, if role or race specific artifacts don't apply (any more)
you can always get non-aligned artifacts in addition to the artifacts of your
alignment.

WRT chaotic artifacts and tactics...
Sometimes folks, specifically when playing chaotics, name appropriate weapons
to immediately get the corresponding namable artifact so that sacrifices will
more likely produce Stormbringer. Personally (when playing chaotics) I often
just pray whenever possible to get crowned early, so that I not only get the
Stormbringer but also obtain the positive side effect of getting the - often
crucial - basic resistances.

Janis
Paulus
2018-06-20 03:57:19 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Whatever alignment, if role or race specific artifacts don't apply (any more)
you can always get non-aligned artifacts in addition to the artifacts of your
alignment.
That's for sure, by the highly coveted Frost Brand! All my comments and my
confusion refer to the situation when the restrictions are meant to apply.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
WRT chaotic artifacts and tactics...
Sometimes folks, specifically when playing chaotics, name appropriate weapons
to immediately get the corresponding namable artifact so that sacrifices will
more likely produce Stormbringer. Personally (when playing chaotics) I often
just pray whenever possible to get crowned early, so that I not only get the
Stormbringer but also obtain the positive side effect of getting the - often
crucial - basic resistances.
My understanding (never tested) is that for some players it is tempting to use
artifact naming for whatever reason. If you name the 2 artifacts and then come
across 2 other chaotic artifact by pure chance rather than sacrificing (very
unlikely), or if you name the 2 and then find a corpse with other 2, or if you
just find the corpse with all 4 (those options somewhat more likely) than you
cannot receive you first sac gift (they are already exhausted) and therefore
any gifts at all. (That's only my understanding of course.) As I don't really
consider Stormy a good choice for early-to-mid-game because of the numerous
possible ill effects, especially likely with my somewhat relaxed manner of
play, I would be really annoyed with having no access to a nice long sword.
Not a fatal problem though - I had some Stormy accessions.

Now, somehow I assumed that the same "exhaustion" effect applies to the role-
based guaranteed first gifts. According to my recent readings it would be
still possible to get past that restriction by changing alignment which
apparently has drawbacks of its own. However it looks like, as per your
advice, the situation is not as dramatic as it sounded to me. Not dramatic
at all, actually, as I almost never accend with the role-based gifts, Mojo
being the only possible exception if my Valk is neutral and the other gifts
are complete rubbish.

BTW, I still haven't found the missing Cleaver. Not that I really care about
it from gameplay point of view, but I still would be happy to have a real
explanation to what has happened, not just theoretical. I shouldn't really
have missed it on the explored levels so the most likely location is the
briefly visited Medusa level (the one with titan, and with no means to
traverse it I chose not to continue). Will post here when (and if) I finish
the level.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-20 06:27:52 UTC
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Quick reply (will come back later)...
BTW, I still haven't found the missing Cleaver. [...]
Lying somewhere on the floor it could have been eaten by a monster.
Or dropped into a moat (by a flying monster). Or buried in a pit,
covered by a boulder.

Are you playing on NAO so that we can inspect the ttyrecs of your
game?

Janis
Paulus
2018-06-20 08:23:11 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Quick reply (will come back later)...
BTW, I still haven't found the missing Cleaver. [...]
Lying somewhere on the floor it could have been eaten by a monster.
Or dropped into a moat (by a flying monster). Or buried in a pit,
covered by a boulder.
Are you playing on NAO so that we can inspect the ttyrecs of your
game?
Janis
Not on NAO, no (vanilla 3.4.3). And yes, I agree, there are somewhat
rare scenarios in which Cleaver exists but is hardly discoverable. I
am, however, aiming at testing the easy one. If Cleaver is on Medusa
level - you have been perfectly right, no mystery unsolved, point
taken, lesson learnt. If I can't find it there - most likely you are
still perfectly right, I just don't have a proof good enough to make
me fully happy.

Still no means to traverse Medusa level, can only confirm there is
no Cleaver on both large walled islands. Will get to the others
eventually (RNG permitting) but not necessarily very soon...
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-20 16:21:55 UTC
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Post by Paulus
Still no means to traverse Medusa level, can only confirm there is
no Cleaver on both large walled islands. Will get to the others
eventually (RNG permitting) but not necessarily very soon...
I'm not quite sure why you are focussing on Medusa. Are you perfectly
sure that there's no yet undetected room somewhere in the upper dungeon,
main branch or mines, or a monster carrying it? - The point is that the
artifact can only been on a level that you had already visited at the
time you sacrificed and got that other artifact. Other levels would not
have been generated at that instance of time.[*]

There are several possible ways passing Medusa; use scrolls of earth
and push the boulders into the water (in a clever way that one or two
scrolls suffice), or just dig down (while not standing adjacent to a
water square), or level-teleport down, or fly/levitate (without tool
you may polymorph into a flying monster), or ride a flying steed, or
jump with spell or boots from one solid spot to the next, or freeze
the water with magic (or let a monster freeze it for you), or dive
through the water with an amulet of the right kind. (I surely forgot
some more options.)

Janis

[*] Not quite sure with Fort Ludios, though. There had been some gory
detail mentioned that, IIRC, there could be Ludios generated but no
portal to access it; which would make it possible that all sorts of
things get generated there, and unique artifact weapons inaccessible.
OTOH I thought that levels will get populated just the moment before
you enter it.
Pat Rankin
2018-06-20 20:18:40 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
[*] Not quite sure with Fort Ludios, though. There had been some gory
detail mentioned that, IIRC, there could be Ludios generated but no
portal to access it; which would make it possible that all sorts of
things get generated there, and unique artifact weapons inaccessible.
Where did that misinformation come from?

It is possible that no portal to it will be generated since the chance
for that is random on each level with a vault in the range of eligible
levels. If no entrance portal gets created, there will be no way to
reach it and it will never be created.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
OTOH I thought that levels will get populated just the moment before
you enter it.
This is correct. Fort Ludios is created at the time you first enter it,
exactly like every other level. [If any monsters get sent there, they
just sit in limbo until you eventually go there yourself, also like every
other level.]

It is assigned a depth (for difficulty purposes, independent of the
depth of the entrance portal which may or may not eventually get
created) at the very start, but so are other levels. That's just a
hypothetical value until it is actually visited.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-20 20:45:01 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
[*] Not quite sure with Fort Ludios, though. There had been some gory
detail mentioned that, IIRC, there could be Ludios generated but no
portal to access it; which would make it possible that all sorts of
things get generated there, and unique artifact weapons inaccessible.
Where did that misinformation come from?
From RGRN; a decade (or so) ago such statements had been posted a couple
of times. Or, to be fair, so did I understand these statements. Not that
this made sense given the mechanics how levels are generated, but I never
cared to check that myself, thus my uncertainty. Maybe they just meant
that Ludios is part of the definition of every game (some game internal
structure reflecting dungeon.def) without knox.des getting instantiated -
but this interpretation of that myth is just a speculation. In any case
it had been said to be a hypothetical case, since you could practically
not access that level then. - Anyway, thanks for clarifying the issue!

Janis
Jukka Lahtinen
2018-06-23 11:16:49 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by Pat Rankin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
detail mentioned that, IIRC, there could be Ludios generated but no
portal to access it; which would make it possible that all sorts of
things get generated there, and unique artifact weapons inaccessible.
Where did that misinformation come from?
From RGRN; a decade (or so) ago such statements had been posted a couple
of times. Or, to be fair, so did I understand these statements. Not that
An example that information posted here is not necessarily always
correct, and even if it is correct, it is possible to misunderstand or
remember wrong.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
cared to check that myself, thus my uncertainty. Maybe they just meant
that Ludios is part of the definition of every game (some game internal
Could be that you misunderstood the location of Ludios being defined as
items being generated there at that point..
--
Jukka Lahtinen
Paulus
2018-06-21 02:40:25 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by Paulus
Still no means to traverse Medusa level, can only confirm there is
no Cleaver on both large walled islands. Will get to the others
eventually (RNG permitting) but not necessarily very soon...
I'm not quite sure why you are focussing on Medusa. Are you perfectly
sure that there's no yet undetected room somewhere in the upper dungeon,
main branch or mines, or a monster carrying it? [...]
As I have said, I agree about other possible scenarios, it's just that I
don't see pursuing them as practical. I am typically fairly thorough with
my normal exploration of the dungeon and rarely come across some serious
staff I happen to miss later on. On the contrary, Medusa level is a
perfectly syitable target to explore. I just cannot do it in full right
now.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
There are several possible ways passing Medusa
Sure; passing through the version with central island is normally a
piece of cake, but the other one is trickier. If stuck there I typically
dig down hoping for levitation boots from Perseus. Not this time. I
traveled back using a cursed scroll, can do it again if needed but
that doesn't help with exploring the rest of the level right now. And
I am in one of those games with a fairly limited inventory, e.g. no
unidentified boots so far. I can still freeze the water for example but
consider it too risky for a situation that is not desperate yet. So...
exercising some patience, trying to get a wish or two from the still
existing main dungeon features (ring of levitation is not typically my
first wish of course but one has to be flexible), if it doesn't work
out will do the Castle and use boulders from a scroll or from resident
giants to access the armor shop. All that failing - the wand...
Paulus
2018-06-21 05:28:33 UTC
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Just for the record - there was no Cleaver on Medusa level.
(There was a rock mole though.)
Richard Bos
2018-06-24 08:59:59 UTC
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Post by Paulus
Just for the record - there was no Cleaver on Medusa level.
(There was a rock mole though.)
Medusa still has nothing to do with it.

Richard
Pat Rankin
2018-06-24 23:16:36 UTC
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Post by Richard Bos
Post by Paulus
Just for the record - there was no Cleaver on Medusa level.
(There was a rock mole though.)
Medusa still has nothing to do with it.
He said that he had entered Medusa's level and then fled without
exploring it. So at that time, it contained objects which hadn't been
examined and was more likely than the levels he had already explored
to have the item he expected to get from sacrificing.

Medusa herself--and her level in general--is just coincidental, not a
specific place where he expected to find artifacts laying around.

Wishing for Cleaver with the castle's wand should reveal whether it
has already been generated. Of course, if it hasn't and the wish is
granted successfully, he'll end up with Cleaver instead of some other
item he could have wished for instead.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-25 06:02:05 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
Wishing for Cleaver with the castle's wand should reveal whether it
has already been generated. Of course, if it hasn't and the wish is
granted successfully, he'll end up with Cleaver instead of some other
item he could have wished for instead.
If it hasn't yet been generated shouldn't the human Barbarian have got
it wtih his first sacrifice? (Mind, the OP hadn't. That was the basic
confusion expressed in this thead.)

Janis
Pat Rankin
2018-06-28 22:04:20 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by Pat Rankin
Wishing for Cleaver with the castle's wand should reveal whether it
has already been generated. Of course, if it hasn't and the wish is
granted successfully, he'll end up with Cleaver instead of some other
item he could have wished for instead.
If it hasn't yet been generated shouldn't the human Barbarian have got
it wtih his first sacrifice? (Mind, the OP hadn't. That was the basic
confusion expressed in this thead.)
Yes, if the role has a designated first gift, like barbarian and Cleaver,
that will always be the first artifact from offering sacrifices unless it
has already been created in the current game (potentially via bones
from an earlier game).

I had forgotten the beginning of this thread where he got Mjollnir
instead. Cleaver already exists, and it was on a level that had been
visited prior to time when Mjollnir was bestowed. (If carried by a
monster, it might be on some other level now.) Attempting to wish
for it would be pointless.

Paulus
2018-06-27 03:27:39 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
Wishing for Cleaver with the castle's wand should reveal whether it
has already been generated. Of course, if it hasn't and the wish is
granted successfully, he'll end up with Cleaver instead of some other
item he could have wished for instead.
I may need some advice here as I don't think I ever wished for artifacts
when there already were 2+. (I indeed sometimes, though not always, ask
for an artifact if I get an early wish.) At the moment I will likely
have a spare wish or two to burn (Castle wand not ID'ed yet but the
character is now fairly well equipped and 0:3 is likely to be too much).
However the wiki is not particularly clear on what happens if I wish
for an artifact that already exists. Will I receive a plain battle-axe
straight away or will my wish be subjected to the normal artifact
wishing odds first? (Those odds are not terribly high at the moment.)
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