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Object Identification Spoiler
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David Damerell
2018-07-19 22:40:10 UTC
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I've prepared a new version of the Object Identification Spoiler... going
back to submissions from 2006, whoops.

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/nhid.html

There's a diff of this version's changes at:

http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/nhid.diff

but also I'm curious to know if anyone knows of any specific changes in
3.6.x.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
If we aren't perfectly synchronised this corncob will explode!
Today is First Teleute, July.
Tomorrow will be First Oneiros, July.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-20 06:10:34 UTC
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Post by David Damerell
I've prepared a new version of the Object Identification Spoiler...
[...]
but also I'm curious to know if anyone knows of any specific changes in
3.6.x.
One thing that changed is the object price calculation. (I'm not sure
whether it's of importance in your spoiler document, but I see a table
with prices, so I suppose it may be.) It's effectively a rounding issue
that affects prices like 199 (base 100, with double surcharge) that now
would become 200 (IIRC; check buying an object with Cha:7). But I don't
see such numbers in your table, so you might not have considered them
in the first place. (For individual price checks the gridbug tool[*] can
be used; it considers also double surcharge and implemented both, the
NH-343 and NH-36x changes in price calculation.)

It's an amazing document, BTW. (Will need some spare time to read it :-)

Janis

[*] http://nh.gridbug.de/prices.html
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-20 06:18:57 UTC
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[...] But I don't
see such numbers in your table, so you might not have considered them
in the first place. (For individual price checks the gridbug tool[*] can
be used; it considers also double surcharge and implemented both, the
NH-343 and NH-36x changes in price calculation.)
Ah, just for completeness; there's of course also price differences when
a level 1-15 tourist buys or sells something. (Considered in the tool.)
[*] http://nh.gridbug.de/prices.html
Janis
jim in austin
2018-07-20 15:17:16 UTC
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Post by David Damerell
I've prepared a new version of the Object Identification Spoiler... going
back to submissions from 2006, whoops.
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/nhid.html
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/nhid.diff
but also I'm curious to know if anyone knows of any specific changes in
3.6.x.
Thinking specifically of 3.6.1, the new "floor" command in #name is quite
handy. You can identify loadstones and scrolls of scare monster without
any risk. My routine in shops is now to walk around affixing prices to
objects (such as: [100] READ ME) without picking anything up unless there
is a stack. Floor will only #name the top item on a mixed stack that your
stupid pet has built...
Zork Ringmasters
2018-07-20 16:51:14 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
Post by David Damerell
I've prepared a new version of the Object Identification Spoiler... going
back to submissions from 2006, whoops.
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/nhid.html
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/nhid.diff
but also I'm curious to know if anyone knows of any specific changes in
3.6.x.
Thinking specifically of 3.6.1, the new "floor" command in #name is quite
handy. You can identify loadstones and scrolls of scare monster without
any risk. My routine in shops is now to walk around affixing prices to
objects (such as: [100] READ ME) without picking anything up unless there
is a stack. Floor will only #name the top item on a mixed stack that your
stupid pet has built...
Good or bad? Lodestones aren't going to be much of a threat then...
jim in austin
2018-07-20 20:28:38 UTC
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Post by Zork Ringmasters
Post by jim in austin
Thinking specifically of 3.6.1, the new "floor" command in #name is quite
handy. You can identify loadstones and scrolls of scare monster without
any risk. My routine in shops is now to walk around affixing prices to
objects (such as: [100] READ ME) without picking anything up unless there
is a stack. Floor will only #name the top item on a mixed stack that your
stupid pet has built...
Good or bad? Lodestones aren't going to be much of a threat then...
Good, assuming you don't want to lug a loadstone around. And the certain
scroll of scare monster under the Sokoban "prize" makes them easy as
well and they are far more important than in 3.4.3...
Bobby Durrett
2018-07-21 02:23:10 UTC
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Post by David Damerell
I've prepared a new version of the Object Identification Spoiler... going
back to submissions from 2006, whoops.
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/nhid.html
http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~damerell/games/nhid.diff
but also I'm curious to know if anyone knows of any specific changes in
3.6.x.
This part is not true in 3.6.1:

"1/4 of sales (at random) have the price reduced by 1/4, but (unlike the
random purchase surcharge) you can circumvent this by getting 2-3 quotes
on the same object."

I ran into this in my current game. In 3.6.1 roughly 1/4th of the
shopkeepers will reduce the sell price by 1/4th on every item in their
shop and the price will not change no matter how many quotes you get.

See the last paragraph of this section:
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Price_identification#Sell_price

Bobby
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-21 09:26:08 UTC
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I ran into this in my current game. In 3.6.1 roughly 1/4th of the shopkeepers
will reduce the sell price by 1/4th on every item in their shop and the price
will not change no matter how many quotes you get.
So the source code comment /* different shop keepers give different prices */
is misplaced in the GEM section; it's obviously now true for the whole if/else
code.

Janis
Bobby Durrett
2018-07-21 14:48:58 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
I ran into this in my current game. In 3.6.1 roughly 1/4th of the shopkeepers
will reduce the sell price by 1/4th on every item in their shop and the price
will not change no matter how many quotes you get.
So the source code comment /* different shop keepers give different prices */
is misplaced in the GEM section; it's obviously now true for the whole if/else
code.
It looks like the dev team took the idea from the gem section and used
it in the 1/4th off section. It is two different parts of the if and
else sections of that same code. The gem section had shkp->m_id % 3 to
choose 1/3rd of the shopkeepers for something in 3.4.3. Now 3.6.1 uses
shkp->m_id % 4 to choose 1/4th of the shopkeepers for the extra 1/4th
price reduction.

The gem code is the same as it was in 3.4.3:

3.4.3 version:

https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Source:NetHack_3.4.3/src/shk.c#line2045

3.6.1 version:

https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Source:NetHack_3.6.1/src/shk.c#line2254

But they added the same kind of calculation with the monster id of the
shopkeeper to the section after it.

3.4.3

https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Source:NetHack_3.4.3/src/shk.c#line2048

3.6.1

https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Source:NetHack_3.6.1/src/shk.c#line2257

So, if you are price iding items that you are selling you just have to
figure out which shopkeepers do the 1/4th reduction.

Bobby
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-21 15:19:49 UTC
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So, if you are price iding items that you are selling you just have to figure
out which shopkeepers do the 1/4th reduction.
Yes, the tactics have slightly changed. Previously you'd have to repeatedly
drop and pickup the items until you got a different price, now you need any
item with an uniquely identifyable price to find out the greedy shopkeepers.
Now a bit less boring the procedure, but in small shops maybe undecidable
what you've got.

Janis
David Damerell
2018-07-22 22:59:57 UTC
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Post by Bobby Durrett
"1/4 of sales (at random) have the price reduced by 1/4, but (unlike the
random purchase surcharge) you can circumvent this by getting 2-3 quotes
on the same object."
I ran into this in my current game. In 3.6.1 roughly 1/4th of the
shopkeepers will reduce the sell price by 1/4th on every item in their
shop and the price will not change no matter how many quotes you get.
Thanks. (And thanks to other commenters). I suspect this makes things
easier from a price-ID point of view.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
Clown shoes. I hope that doesn't bother you.
Today is First Aponoia, July.
Tomorrow will be First Epithumia, July - a weekend.
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