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Giant Eel? I thought we were past that???
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m***@yahoo.com
2018-06-29 16:57:41 UTC
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I got killed by a giant eel. I was wearing amulet of lifesaving and then I teleported them away with wand, and hit them after with magic missiles.

But I don't understand how this happened.

I was AC -50 (yes, I wrote that correctly). Largely because of rings of protection and the "protection" spell.

They can still hit me at that AC? wtf?
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-30 06:37:57 UTC
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
I got killed by a giant eel. I was wearing amulet of lifesaving and then I
teleported them away with wand, and hit them after with magic missiles.
But I don't understand how this happened.
They can still hit me at that AC? wtf?
My understanding is that you won't get (much) damage with that AC, but eels
can wrap around you physically (unless you cancelled them or wear slippery
armor). I think it's similar with other special attacks (hugs, disease, etc.)
It makes sense, I think. Because of that the usual tactics is to use ranged
attacks for sea creatures in the first place.[*]

You would have saved your amulet if you carefully watched the attack messages;
usually (in NH-343; while not highly slowed down) you have a turn to teleport
it away or burn the protective word.

Janis

[*] Even my current samurai who is two-weaponing at Expert an artifact and
another longsword did not dare to melee the electric eels because of that
inherent danger.
jim in austin
2018-06-30 15:10:15 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by m***@yahoo.com
I got killed by a giant eel. I was wearing amulet of lifesaving and then I
teleported them away with wand, and hit them after with magic missiles.
But I don't understand how this happened.
They can still hit me at that AC? wtf?
My understanding is that you won't get (much) damage with that AC, but eels
can wrap around you physically (unless you cancelled them or wear slippery
armor). I think it's similar with other special attacks (hugs, disease, etc.)
It makes sense, I think. Because of that the usual tactics is to use ranged
attacks for sea creatures in the first place.[*]
You would have saved your amulet if you carefully watched the attack messages;
usually (in NH-343; while not highly slowed down) you have a turn to teleport
it away or burn the protective word.
Janis
[*] Even my current samurai who is two-weaponing at Expert an artifact and
another longsword did not dare to melee the electric eels because of that
inherent danger.
The drowning attack first has to get past your AC and then has a 1 in 10
chance of grabbing you. The next attack to succeed drowns you. I find an
oilskin cloak paired with water walking boots a good solution. Well, at
least until you overlook a water nymph in the swamp and she steals your
boots...
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-30 16:38:34 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
The drowning attack first has to get past your AC
Have you some code-reference for that? (I don't seem to find such code
for the AT_WRAP attack.)
Post by jim in austin
and then has a 1 in 10 chance of grabbing you.
To me it seems to be a plain 1 in 10 chance of wrap-success.
Post by jim in austin
The next attack to succeed drowns you. I find an
oilskin cloak paired with water walking boots a good solution.
I think oilskin makes you safe from grabs/wraps, and water walking won't
prevent you from being drowned.

Janis
jim in austin
2018-06-30 20:34:06 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by jim in austin
The drowning attack first has to get past your AC
Have you some code-reference for that? (I don't seem to find such code
for the AT_WRAP attack.)
Code, no. This is my wiki reference:
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Holding_attack#Drowning_attack
Post by Janis Papanagnou
I think oilskin makes you safe from grabs/wraps, and water walking won't
prevent you from being drowned.
Oh, I HIGHLY recommend using them together =)

I've been playing a lot of ranged game recently so levitation isn't
particularly useful. The Plane of Air is about the only exception.
Oilskin plus water walking serves me well whenever critter infested
waters are involved...
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-30 21:08:46 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by jim in austin
The drowning attack first has to get past your AC
Have you some code-reference for that? (I don't seem to find such code
for the AT_WRAP attack.)
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Holding_attack#Drowning_attack
Oh, I've inspected the Wiki, and I've inspected the code; the code seems
to disagree with the Wiki. But if I'm wrong and misread the code, please
correct me, I'm really not sure about it.
Post by jim in austin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
I think oilskin makes you safe from grabs/wraps, and water walking won't
prevent you from being drowned.
Oh, I HIGHLY recommend using them together =)
Well, I don't. :-)

My reasons; water walking is rarely necessary, sometimes very useful, and
sometimes even bad. Mostly (always if I have them) I prefer speed boots!
I switch to water walking (if I have them) on Medusa's and Juiblex' level,
on some specific quest levels, or if I want to dilute potions (or blank
scrolls). Where they are bad is if you use them on watery levels and you
have non-flying/non-swimming pets; it's bad if you inadvertently displace
your pets into the water and kill it (been there a couple times; YMMV).
Post by jim in austin
I've been playing a lot of ranged game recently so levitation isn't
particularly useful. The Plane of Air is about the only exception.
Levitation is about as important as water walking; in a few places it's
very useful (also at Medusa's and Juiblex'), mostly not. Bad is that you
can't dilute/blank items, good is that you can pass trapdoors and holes
(e.g. at the Castle), also good is that you don't erase dust-engravings,
and sometimes it provides a carry capacity bonus.

(A packrat like me will carry both options if available. ;-)
Post by jim in austin
Oilskin plus water walking serves me well whenever critter infested
waters are involved...
Oilskin is good also against hug-attacks.

Janis
Zork Ringmasters
2018-07-03 13:22:40 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by jim in austin
The drowning attack first has to get past your AC
Have you some code-reference for that? (I don't seem to find such code
for the AT_WRAP attack.)
https://nethackwiki.com/wiki/Holding_attack#Drowning_attack
Post by Janis Papanagnou
I think oilskin makes you safe from grabs/wraps, and water walking won't
prevent you from being drowned.
Oh, I HIGHLY recommend using them together =)
I've been playing a lot of ranged game recently so levitation isn't
particularly useful. The Plane of Air is about the only exception.
Oilskin plus water walking serves me well whenever critter infested
waters are involved...
I second water walking. Barbarians can take out single eels fairly well. Maybe eels recognize when they are losing hit points fast. However, slip up once and not notice two eels and you are likely to be drowned. With water walking one can survey the field, so to speak.

On that note, priests _can_ wield two-handed swords, even if they are Unskilled in the prospect. Although they may miss more often than a Barbarian, one hit is devastating to the enemy. Additionally, I've noticed less missing than with some other weapons in other hands. Not sure if two-handed swords have a bonus to hit. Maybe...
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-07 04:25:24 UTC
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I've just never experienced difficulty with eels after AC -30 or so. From now on I take them out with ranged/spell/wand attacks just to be safe.

oilskin cloak sucks compared to cloak of protection or cloak of magic resistance. Even displacement or invisibility is better early game.

Having an item that defends against TWO MONSTERS IN THE WHOLE GAME isn't a very good use of slots.

But in any case it's oilskin cloak and/or ranged attacks and/or genocide from now on.

For the record I've never in all my nethack time used boots of water walking. Levitation is superior for everything. I've used blessed potion of levitation or boots of levitation, or even the spell in a real pinch (medusa's or fighting at the castle).

But if I don't have a ring of levitation by the time I get the castle wand, i wish for it. It's too important.
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-07 04:30:10 UTC
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also who the heck has boots of water walking anyway? There's a pair at Vlad's but you're going to need it FAR before then.

There's what, a 30% chance of boots of levitaiton on medusa's level. The ring is far more common, plus you can polipile groups of rings to get ring of levitation. Plus it auto identifies when tried on. Polipiling for boots has a low success rate and boot varieties aren't common, as well as the fact that it's a very remote chance to get when polipiling even a stack of armor.

I've never heard of anyone going to the castle using scrolls of earth or amulet of magical breathing to bypass the water, then going to vlad's to get boots of water walking and then coming back.

Has anyone ever done that?

Anyway, where the heck are you people getting boots of water walking?
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-07 08:46:47 UTC
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
also who the heck has boots of water walking anyway? There's a pair at
Vlad's but you're going to need it FAR before then.
The boots there are your guaranteed return ticket if other options fail.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
I've never heard of anyone going to the castle using scrolls of earth or
amulet of magical breathing to bypass the water, then going to vlad's to
get boots of water walking and then coming back.
I often use (and also suggest it to those who are desperately waiting at
Medusa's sea without any item to cross the sea) the scroll of earth.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Has anyone ever done that?
Passing Medusa' sea with scrolls of earth? Sure. Quite often.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Anyway, where the heck are you people getting boots of water walking?
From the same sources I get other items. Random, shops, polypiles, Vlad,
wishes. They have the same random generation than rate than levitation
boots.

Janis
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-08 03:01:02 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by m***@yahoo.com
also who the heck has boots of water walking anyway? There's a pair at
Vlad's but you're going to need it FAR before then.
The boots there are your guaranteed return ticket if other options fail.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
I've never heard of anyone going to the castle using scrolls of earth or
amulet of magical breathing to bypass the water, then going to vlad's to
get boots of water walking and then coming back.
I often use (and also suggest it to those who are desperately waiting at
Medusa's sea without any item to cross the sea) the scroll of earth.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Has anyone ever done that?
Passing Medusa' sea with scrolls of earth? Sure. Quite often.
No I was asking if anyone really got the boots at vlads and then went and used those for the castle or to get back through medusa's?
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Anyway, where the heck are you people getting boots of water walking?
From the same sources I get other items. Random, shops, polypiles, Vlad,
wishes. They have the same random generation than rate than levitation
boots.
Janis
WAIT WHO exactly is going to wish for boots of water walking when you can wish for a ring of levitation? Why would you prefer boots of water walking over levitation.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
They have the same random generation than rate than levitation
boots.
No they don't! Boots of levitaiton can be in one of medusa's statues a decent percentage of the time!
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-08 09:54:25 UTC
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Has anyone ever done that?
Passing Medusa' sea with scrolls of earth? Sure. Quite often.
No I was asking if anyone really got the boots at vlads and then went and
used those for the castle or to get back through medusa's?
If you don't find anything else, what options do you have but waiting for
random death drops or proceed into Gehennom? - Yes, I'm sure I've skipped
Castle a couple times because I could not enter or circumvent. But then
you have to use levelport to proceed deeper, since the Castle floor is
undiggable. But these are not the only cases where the guaranteed boots
are useful; if you blow up your items or if they get destroyed or stolen
you are not doomed in Gehennom.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Anyway, where the heck are you people getting boots of water walking?
From the same sources I get other items. Random, shops, polypiles, Vlad,
wishes. They have the same random generation than rate than levitation
boots.
WAIT WHO exactly is going to wish for boots of water walking when you can
wish for a ring of levitation? Why would you prefer boots of water walking
over levitation.
Generally rings are prone to shock effects. Passing Medusa's sea with a
ring of levitation while the electric eels are still alive, or while a
blue dragon is nearby and you have no reflection, similar with monsters
that carry a wand of lightning, or wearing one if you open a chest, or
even facing a monster with Mjollnir (been there at Astral, conflict gone),
or if you're lacking shock resistance. Generally boots are more reliable
than rings, but as rings or other items, boots are also not failsafe,
they can be stolen or vaporize if you have no MR and contact with a not
too low-level spellcaster. From the boots - and I think I already said
that elsewhere - I prefer water walking to be able to dilute potions and
blank scrolls, for example.
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by Janis Papanagnou
They have the same random generation than rate than levitation boots.
No they don't! Boots of levitaiton can be in one of medusa's statues a
decent percentage of the time!
This is not a fair comparison; boots of levitation have only 25% and 75%
respectively chance there, while boots of water walking have a 100% chance
in Vlad's tower. These are the fixed places. Any you have generally asked
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Anyway, where the heck are you people getting boots of water walking?
From the same sources I get other items. Random, shops, polypiles, Vlad,
wishes.
And to emphasize since you probably have missed it; "random" [generation]
was the first listed element and the "same random generation rate" does
of course not contain "fixed" coded appearances (as the [guaranteed] item
at Vlad or the [non-guaranteed] item at Medusa).

Janis
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-08 18:04:43 UTC
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Ok I get it. Wow those are rare cases. But anything can happen in Nethack I suppose.

The worst I've ever had it is using blessed potions of levitation to get over the castle's trap doors and getting the wow (afterwards I wished for MR item and ring of levitation).

One other time I opened the drawbridge with wand of opening (or maybe wand of striking? I don't remember). And scrolls of earth to cross.

Other than that I've always used ring of levitation.
David Damerell
2018-07-09 20:17:57 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Generally rings are prone to shock effects. Passing Medusa's sea with a
ring of levitation while the electric eels are still alive, or while a
blue dragon is nearby and you have no reflection,
While you're right in general about the destructability of rings, these
are just things you shouldn't do. The eels can't come and get you; there
is no reason whatsoever to let one be adjacent to you at Medusa.
Post by Janis Papanagnou
too low-level spellcaster. From the boots - and I think I already said
that elsewhere - I prefer water walking to be able to dilute potions and
blank scrolls, for example.
While this is convenient, you can just go swimming.
--
David Damerell <***@chiark.greenend.org.uk>
And now, a seemingly inexplicable shot of a passing train.
Today is Second Saturday, Presuary - a weekend.
Tomorrow will be Second Sunday, Presuary - a weekend.
Zork Ringmasters
2018-07-19 04:02:33 UTC
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Reveal what you learned from the code in excellent cyberEnglish. I suspect there are other details beyond what we have discussed.
Jukka Lahtinen
2018-07-19 10:11:42 UTC
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Post by Zork Ringmasters
Reveal what you learned from the code in excellent cyberEnglish. I
suspect there are other details beyond what we have discussed.
What are you babbling about? No context..
--
Jukka Lahtinen
Jorgen Grahn
2018-07-23 14:22:47 UTC
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Post by Jukka Lahtinen
Post by Zork Ringmasters
Reveal what you learned from the code in excellent cyberEnglish. I
suspect there are other details beyond what we have discussed.
What are you babbling about? No context..
There seem to be some stream-of-unconciousness-style posters on
r.g.r.n. these days. Just ignore (i.e. killfile) them.

/Jorgen
--
// Jorgen Grahn <grahn@ Oo o. . .
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
Zork Ringmasters
2018-07-23 17:45:10 UTC
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Post by Jorgen Grahn
Post by Jukka Lahtinen
Post by Zork Ringmasters
Reveal what you learned from the code in excellent cyberEnglish. I
suspect there are other details beyond what we have discussed.
What are you babbling about? No context..
There seem to be some stream-of-unconciousness-style posters on
r.g.r.n. these days. Just ignore (i.e. killfile) them.
/Jorgen
--
\X/ snipabacken.se> O o .
If you follow the thread, by reading it in full, you will see that some users were code diving to discern the relationship between giant eels and their ability to take lives. Got it so far?

I carefully explained that the giant eels do not have to hit the adventurer, merely to touch him with their flesh, which is a different mechanism than pure armor class.

Promptly the code diving was discarded as all accepted my explanation.

Now, for completion, I would like the others to summarize their findings so that we can put it all together, especially if there is more necessary to my explanation in case it comes up again.

During the conversation, it should be noted that there was large viscosity of data flow primarily by the slow nature of a participant named Jorgen Grahn. In future discussions, I will consider advising others to edge him out or ignore him somehow because he takes away from the conversation. Without this it is unlikely solutions will be found.
Pat Rankin
2018-06-30 20:51:33 UTC
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Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by jim in austin
The drowning attack first has to get past your AC
Have you some code-reference for that? (I don't seem to find such code
for the AT_WRAP attack.)
Eels have AT_TUCH attack which inflicts AD_WRAP damage. In mattacku(),
the variable 'tmp' gets computed, starting with your effective armor class,
then modified by other things including the attacker's level. Then in the
AT_TUCH case, 'tmp' is compared against a random value between 0 and 20,
inclusive (normally 0 to 19, but in this case 19+1 due to it being that creature's
second attack, so slightly less likely to hit than its first attack). If that succeeds,
hitmu() gets called to handle the wrapping/drowning.

When AC is negative, the effective armor class is a random value between
-1 and AC each time it gets checked, rather than straight AC. So -50 is much
better than -25, but either one might operate as if -1 (or -2, etc) for defending
against any given attack.
Janis Papanagnou
2018-06-30 21:13:08 UTC
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Post by Pat Rankin
Post by Janis Papanagnou
Post by jim in austin
The drowning attack first has to get past your AC
Have you some code-reference for that? (I don't seem to find such code
for the AT_WRAP attack.)
Eels have AT_TUCH attack which inflicts AD_WRAP damage. In mattacku(),
the variable 'tmp' gets computed, starting with your effective armor class,
then modified by other things including the attacker's level. Then in the
AT_TUCH case, 'tmp' is compared against a random value between 0 and 20,
inclusive (normally 0 to 19, but in this case 19+1 due to it being that creature's
second attack, so slightly less likely to hit than its first attack). If that succeeds,
hitmu() gets called to handle the wrapping/drowning.
Ah, I see. Thanks for the explanation. I missed the AT_TUCH and AD_WRAP thing.
Post by Pat Rankin
When AC is negative, the effective armor class is a random value between
-1 and AC each time it gets checked, rather than straight AC. So -50 is much
better than -25, but either one might operate as if -1 (or -2, etc) for defending
against any given attack.
Janis
Yosemite Sam
2018-07-01 03:51:43 UTC
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You want to banter about code, yet I'd rather preserve Zork and its rubies.
Yosemite Sam
2018-07-01 04:04:15 UTC
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What don't you get about armor penetration? Deflection? No damage?
Zork Ringmasters
2018-06-30 18:11:22 UTC
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
I got killed by a giant eel. I was wearing amulet of lifesaving and then I teleported them away with wand, and hit them after with magic missiles.
But I don't understand how this happened.
I was AC -50 (yes, I wrote that correctly). Largely because of rings of protection and the "protection" spell.
They can still hit me at that AC? wtf?
There are two different rules between grabbing and hitting. It's just as easy for a giant creature to grab someone in plate armor as someone in studded leather. AC includes some representation of the difficulty of penetration, which is irrelevant when dealing with this creature.
jim in austin
2018-07-08 20:26:16 UTC
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The talk in this thread has mentioned levitation and water walking.
I wanted to add that all water hazards above Gehennom are navigable
with jumping boots as well, including all the Medusa variations. It's
admittedly tedious and I wouldn't attempt it without an oilskin cloak
if water monsters hadn't been genocided. Not sure about The Swamp since
I've never tried it. In fact, I had assumed the boots in Vlad's were
there for just that reason...
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-08 21:43:56 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
The talk in this thread has mentioned levitation and water walking.
I wanted to add that all water hazards above Gehennom are navigable
with jumping boots as well, including all the Medusa variations. It's
admittedly tedious and I wouldn't attempt it without an oilskin cloak
if water monsters hadn't been genocided. Not sure about The Swamp since
I've never tried it. In fact, I had assumed the boots in Vlad's were
there for just that reason...
Janis makes a good point about completely ridiculously annoying RNG results and how to get around them, or about if you accidentally destroy something through mistaken enchanting/charging/bag of holding incident. Jumping is another possibility.

Does anyone know if wand of striking works on the castle gate? Or only wand of opening?
jim in austin
2018-07-08 23:01:18 UTC
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Post by m***@yahoo.com
Does anyone know if wand of striking works on the castle gate? Or only wand of opening?
Oh, it works. Just be sure you're standing well back to avoid being
crushed by the falling debris. And then you'll need some method of
crossing the moat...
m***@yahoo.com
2018-07-08 23:03:42 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
Post by m***@yahoo.com
Does anyone know if wand of striking works on the castle gate? Or only wand of opening?
Oh, it works. Just be sure you're standing well back to avoid being
crushed by the falling debris. And then you'll need some method of
crossing the moat...
But guaranteed scrolls of earth from sokobon will do that.

Prepare the stairs with elbereth or another boulder fort around the stairs, and lead them into the HOT GATES as certain greek armies would say.
jim in austin
2018-07-08 23:23:03 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
The talk in this thread has mentioned levitation and water walking.
I wanted to add that all water hazards above Gehennom are navigable
with jumping boots as well, including all the Medusa variations. It's
admittedly tedious and I wouldn't attempt it without an oilskin cloak
if water monsters hadn't been genocided. Not sure about The Swamp since
I've never tried it. In fact, I had assumed the boots in Vlad's were
there for just that reason...
[update] I just burned 3 cursed scrolls of teleportation to visit the
swamp level of my current game and yes, it could easily be navigated
with jumping boots given the caveats in my original post. So, I now have
no idea why water walking boots appear in Vlad's Tower...
Janis Papanagnou
2018-07-09 06:43:42 UTC
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Post by jim in austin
Post by jim in austin
The talk in this thread has mentioned levitation and water walking.
I wanted to add that all water hazards above Gehennom are navigable
with jumping boots as well, including all the Medusa variations. It's
admittedly tedious and I wouldn't attempt it without an oilskin cloak
if water monsters hadn't been genocided. Not sure about The Swamp since
I've never tried it. In fact, I had assumed the boots in Vlad's were
there for just that reason...
[update] I just burned 3 cursed scrolls of teleportation to visit the
swamp level of my current game and yes, it could easily be navigated
with jumping boots given the caveats in my original post. So, I now have
no idea why water walking boots appear in Vlad's Tower...
No, you cannot rely on that. Where the inner part (i.e. most of the level)
can be even passed on solid ground - there is a path! - the stairs can be
randomly placed in the outer regions and can be placed completely isolated
with lots of water around, too much to jump. (Been there a couple times.)

Of course there's more mean to pass water than water walking, levitation,
or jumping. You can also freeze it, for example. (Asmodeus has a guaranteed
wand of cold.)

Janis
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